Catastrophic engine failure (lubrication helps engines)

[MrZig]

The trip is up in the air at this point.

Here's what happend.

Tuesday night I took it to Rob's house to help him practice. I checked the oil before leaving and it was a tiny bit low so I added some. (It has a small leak on the clutch cover.) Got to Rob's fine, then we headed out practicing. While practicing, I noticed a small tick around 3-4k rpm only when I would open the throttle a bit. IE when letting the clutch out in first. Sounded like the chain was slapping something and it would go away if I let off the throttle or if I were to go above 4k RPM.

Cut to yesterday. Rob passed his test and we were running around town joyriding and getting some errands done. I checked the oil before doing this and it looked fine. While around town, I noticed the tick was slightly worse, and the bike felt 'funny', almost like the clutch was slipping in first gear. I thought nothing of it and that I'd deal with it when I got home.

Finally on the way home via backroads, the ticking got worse and I lost a little bit of power when passing vehicles. Then the bus. Rob was ahead of me and he passed it first. I had to wait till another dotted line and when I saw my chance I put her in full throttle to get by. The thing is, I didn't have nearly as much power as I had the other day. It just wasn't there, it barely had enough power to pass and when I got by, the ticking was incredibly worse. Any RPM under any throttle position except closed it would make this terrible ticking, so I pulled off the road to check it out.

Soon as I pulled the clutch in, the engine died. I came to a stop, put it in neutral and hit the starter button only to be greeted with an engine that didn't want to turn over very well. You know when you have a dying battery and the engine turns over very very slowly? This. I opened the oil cap and steam was pouring out of it. Steam was also coming out of the crankcase vent. I also smelt a burning smell when I took the cap off which I noticed when the ticking was first starting the night previous (didn't put 2 and 2 together).

While waiting for Rob to come back (he doesn't check his mirrors often it seems), I noticed the engine was puking oil out of every orfice. The valve cover, the base gasket, places that hadn't been leaking the day before. When he arrived I told him the situation and cursed loudly. I started the bike and to my amazement it started. However the oil light stayed on for 2-3 seconds so I shut it off.

I phoned my mom to give me a ride (was only 20 mins away) and this nice Harley rider comes by and asks what's wrong. I explain it to him and he asks if my carb's have been leaned out. I say not really. Oh ****, except my main? hm.. I then start it up for him and it starts up great. Doesn't even smoke out of the tailpipe. The oil light goes away within half a second, it idles, and revs just fine. He tells me to baby it home and then takes off.

My mom arrives and I check the oil again and it's low, so I filled it up (probably half-3/4 quart) and it's good to go. I tell her to follow me incase anything goes wrong. And oh god did it ever. 2 minutes down the road and the ticking is worse than ever, the power is gone, and the ticking is sounding like I'm going to blow a conrod or something at any second. Pull the clutch in, engine dies, doesn't want to turn over anymore.

And that's where I am. I still have to go back and get it today..

Summary:

Ticking
Burning smell
Worse ticking
Loss power
Dies
Turns over like dead battery
Oil light stays on when running
Oil light then goes away
Fill it up with oil, drive away
Loses power and ticking is worse than ever
Dies.



I think either I ran it too low of oil due to the leak/burning oil, or the oil pump failed/the pickup screen got clogged.


..Any suggestions?

 

[donimo]

Dude, that licks...

 

[Guest]

Oil Problem?

Oil Problem?

Check the oil pump screen and the valves.
G

 

[mark_vaughn]

Will she still turn over today? (Don't actually crank it)

 

[rudy]

Sounds like you're about right on seizing. Another thing to think of is, what's your petcock like? Original? Do you know if it leaked or not? Could have been pouring gas into your crankcase and thinning out your oil. You'll lose oil pressure and lubricating ability with that. That'll be a plain bearing engine, so it won't deal with lack of lubrication as forgivingly as a roller/ball bearing engine would.

How hard to you ride it? What kind of oil do you use? What about ignition timing? Ever get it timed? What's your plugs look like? Has the engine ever been apart that you know of?

You say it's a GSX engine in your GS bike, so where is the engine from? Did it come with the carbs that are on it? The reason why I ask is because of elevation changes. It may have been set up for somewhere at a different altitude than where you're at. If that's the case, the jetting could be off. Short rides you won't notice as much as the engine will take a little while to heat up enough. Have you been on longer rides before?

Just a few questions to start with. Stick through it and keep us all up to date and you'll be back riding in a few weeks. Unfortunately not likely in time to get out on your cross country trek.

Rudy

 

[rudy]

Will she still turn over today? (Don't actually crank it)

Yes, do what Mark says. Pull the stator cover and see if you can turn it with a wrench/socket.

 

[MrZig]

I adjusted the valves when I bought it (less than 1000 KM ago).
Petcock is new and doesn't leak. Carb's are spotless inside and out. Fuel screw was out 2 turns each however a part fische says that my main jet's were 3 sizes too small. (110's instead of 117.5's) whether or not it was different for Canada, or maybe a PO changed them I'm not sure.

Around town and highways I don't ride it too hard, but on backroads I flog it a bit. 6-8k rpm. Rarely red lining it. (9k rpm red line).

Always put in 87 octane. If this is my downfall, and it actually requires 91+, then crap. I used Kawasaki 10w40 4 stroke motorcycke oil. The engine looks to have been apart at one time, and I havn't checked the plugs lately.

Clymers says the ignition timing on the bike is non adjustable, and I never messed with it. I have no idea about the history of the bike so I can't say where the engine is from.

I've also been on longer rides than this with absolutely no problems.

 

[donimo]

I'd have to check, but maybe the carbs are from the 78 2v 400, or did the 2v 400 use the VM carbs?

I had similar issues when my exhaust got plugge with fiberglass packing, but not the ticking...

but yeah, you may get off as lightly as cleaning a clogged screen (makes me want to check mine) and being nice to it for a bit.

 

[mark_vaughn]

Yes, do what Mark says. Pull the stator cover and see if you can turn it with a wrench/socket.

If it does turn listen to it. Hear scraping? Metal on Metal? Does it build compression when you turn it?

From your description it sounds like the engine is toast. If you can turn it over, it can probably be made to run again without much effort, just fix whatever kept the oil from moving. But it will not be a strong/reliable engine unless it is rebuilt. Basically, if you get it running, get AAA and a cell phone...

But that's just my 2cents.

 

[Nessism]

Sorry about the engine problem. Using low octane gas or running the engine down half a quart of oil shouldn’t cause the problems you describe.

Regarding the main jets, I’m surprised the bike ran properly. The engine could be running lean which caused overheating. Better check that out carefully – do some plug chops.

Good luck and hope the damage is not too bad.

 

[MrZig]

I got the bike home and it starts over fine without the plug wires on.

Drained the oil, took the pan off and took a look see.

The pickup screen is completley clear, there's nothing blocking it all! Except.. a couple metal flakes. So I took the filter out and egads, more metal flakes.

Not lots but enough to make me worry.

 

[MrZig]

Valve cover is off. Camshaft looks perfect. Chain is taught. Turning the engine over by hand is free and easy with no scraping noises, and I feel compression.

Pictures:

 

[MrZig]

 

[Guest]

I'd like to see a pic of your spark plugs. If you are so lean you're breaking down your oil you need to richen things up.
If it isn't a lean condition I'd check your oil pressure.
Does your oil smell like fuel? Oil doesn't "steam" so fuel in your oil could be a problem.

 

[reddirtrider]

If you were running lean the pistons probably overheated, expanded, and scraped on the cylinders. That may be where the flakes came from. When you pull the cylinders you'll know for sure. The piston skirt will show any damage.

If that's the case, mike the pistons and if they are still in spec you may be ok to use them again. Run a hone through the cylinders, possible install new rings and (best case) you'll be on the road again.

 

[Guest]

If you were running lean the pistons probably overheated, expanded, and scraped on the cylinders. That may be where the flakes came from. When you pull the cylinders you'll know for sure. The piston skirt will show any damage.

If that's the case, mike the pistons and if they are still in spec you may be ok to use them again. Run a hone through the cylinders, possible install new rings and (best case) you'll be on the road again.

Good point!

 

[Guest]

Death tick and sucking power is often the Journal bearings.

(which the 650's do have) They are good bikes but not bulletproof roller bearing motors.

 

[MrZig]

Okay here's a small update. It might be related with the cam timing.

Clymer says that on the GS450's, I need 18 links between the cam marks. Even though mine is a GSX400, everything that the manual has said for the GS450 has applied for my engine.

As you can see, I have 20 links between the marks:




Now, with the timing marks setup like this (I'm not sure if it's correct?)



The exhaust cam is pointed here:




I think something is haywire here and I may have bent a valve.

I noticed that when spinning the engine with a ratchet, the chain in between the camshafts is pretty taught at times, then if I spin it some more it loosens up a bit, then if I spin it more it tightens up, rinse and repeat.

 

[mikluha]

Well, this one is easy. When the intake cam chaft opens the valves, it needs to be pulled by one side of the chain (top section). When it closes the valves, it need to be held back by the other portion of the chain ( that goes from bottom to top) and the top section loosens.

When you rotate you engine do you fill ups and downs? Why do you expect the tension to be the same?

I noticed that when spinning the engine with a ratchet, the chain in between the camshafts is pretty taught at times, then if I spin it some more it loosens up a bit, then if I spin it more it tightens up, rinse and repeat.

 

[mike_of_bbg]

Sounds like a problem with the cam chain tensioner. Messed with it recently? Did you try a compression test? If you had bent a valve surely you would have low compression.