Finally found 100% gas.. big difference

[Torqued]

I occasionally suffer from "verbal ( or in this case;typed ) diarrhea", so i try to read more than type( ears and mind open + mouth shut) but this topic got me going.....

First, I am in the middle of resurrecting an 1986 gs 400 eg ( 400 S ) and would like
to extend a GIANT and sincere thank you to everyone keeping the gs resources going
and therefore our bikes as well.

Second, (on topic this time) the type of fuel used ( and quality as defined by
performance in relation to intended use and to a lesser degree expectations)
varies greatly even locally even from the same source. We all know that fuel ages.
I would love it if it didn't, but the sheer number and in depth detail regarding carb
cleaning/rebuilding,extra(some ppl. 3 or 4!!!!)filters,petcock issues,etc... prove that
fuel does not simply lose it's "qualities" as it ages(degrades) it also breaks down and
leaves residues as it evaporates.Lubricity additives,"stabilizers" etc... burn-( not just
rate ) but burn character modified fuel ( on an atomic/molecularily engineered level)
is something we have to accept.Did you know that when oil companies store fuel(s)
in those giant tanks, they "bubble" gases like propane,nat.gas,butane and others at
the bottom of the tanks to keep the fuel " fresh "? (mainly to bring octane levels
(back) up to a desired level)As the gas bubbles to the top of the tanks,the gas mole-
cules change,losing atoms to the fuel they pass thruu. The fuel you buy at your local
or favourite station is many months old. It is incredibly important to buy your fuel
from places with a high " turnover " even if it is "old" by the time you get it, because
it deteriorates very rapidly since the most reactive parts are the first to break down.
Every time it is transferred air must enter the space formerly occupied by it,thereby
allowing a little more deterioration each time.Try to imagine how many times it comes
in contact with air or other "contaminants" between the refinery and the intake valve.
Also and I really hate to say it but those lil' mom&pop shops I prefer over corporations
often have old contaminated tanks,so i try to buy my fuel from the brand spanking
new large customer volume station and buy everything else(munchies,bevvys,bulbs,
and whatever possible from the small places knowing full well it is gonna cost me more
because the oil companies wont let them make a larger profit on fuel,nevermind the
other restrictions placed on them.A friend of mine was unfortunately the perfect
example why.He had just assembled a BRAND NEW $10,000+ big block mopar engine,
top shelf aftermarket parts and "oodles"(read thousands of dollars) machine shop work
to block and the aluminum heads.Nevermind the almost 2 year build time for just the
engine.Show car detail underhood,paint etc.... when finally done, he got a 2 gallon
can and i drove him to the staion,he argued with me wanted to go to his favourite
lil' ma&pa shop, but since i was driving (and offered to buy his cars first "sips" of juice)
I drove him to the new chevron a few blocks farther,and told him I'll even stop at the
other place on the way back for 2 cokes.Got the fuel,took forver,(even compared to
reading/typing this lol )to put it in the car without spilling a single drop on the than
new/fresh (custom(VERY EXPENSIVE)paint,BUT in our excitement and anticipation we
had both forgot to stop at the "other" station for the cokes......so......
we hopped in his car and drove to the "other" place where since we were allready
stopped he decided to fill up. Highest octane.= most expensive therefore not the
highest volume product.We didn't get far,or rather the car didn't.It turns out that
the station's tank had been leaking for a while and ground water "seeped" in.
The engine, NOT EVEN BROKEN IN, was toast.To describe it I have to use painful
words like;bent,windowed,scraped and scratched,warped and others like them.
Im sure you can imagine.................................
The station's owner disputed and fought it. My friend finally got compensated,
(nowhere even near enough even if you only consider financial cost of parts and
machine shop labour) about 3 and a half years later, by when a whole crowd of ppl
found out about his story and came forward with their complaints about the station
and their reapair bills and receipts.The station's owner when"cornered" made a
statement along the lines of ,underground tank repair being prohibitively expensive,
even if he could have afforded it,the time needed for the repair/replacement and the
loss of access to the other pumps and the retail location meant that he could not
sustain the business and since it was his "everything" he would lose....................
he got sued, went bankrupt,lost "everything" and after all that got a several million$
"enviromental" clean up bill that was forced upon him by the gov/powers that be........
when the tank was dug up we went to look at it, it was rusted thru up top in several
places some holes a couple of feet accross or more and many other smaller ones,they
couldnt even lift it up and out without it collapsing! and the other tanks were in only
marginally better shape some also rusted thru but with only fuel leaking out instead of
ground water and mud leaking in because at that time of the year the water table is
higher on that side of the property,so the leak there only contaminated the soil and
ground water and a nearby stream.It was estimated that they had been leaking for
numerous years.It was impossible for others to prove that their "mechanical"
problems were caused by the station, because they didnt know about each other and
the number of ppl affected.My friends case was the first that was "easy" to prove
with a brand new engine and it still took years and for others to find out about his
case and to be able to co-relate their issues and than to track down repair receipts
shops and mechanics etc....
That was a serious eye opener.
Since than I only buy fuel from new or newish stations.
As for preference chevron 94 octane.I often have to drain fuel tanks of scrapped cars
and we ( as not just me ) can tell chevron fuel by smell. chevron is just a personal
preference, but that is based on performance,lack of pre ignition, and better mileage
as well as the cleanliness of the insides of fuel systems. I have only owned 1 vehicle
in almost 20 years that did not get better mileage,( per quantity or per $ ) on 94oct.
That was a 91 civic dx(sohc).85 cutlass HO305chev/85 tempo 2.3l HSC/77 campervan
318-2bbl/94 shadow 2.2l/93spirit 2.5l/300+HP merc 2stroke outboard/87 sable 3.0l/
97 sebring 2.7l/02 liberty 3.7l/02 protege 2.0l/92 integra gsr1.7lvtec/93sho3.0lyamaha
porsche 944/928/vw bug/72 lincoln 460 cu in/ several race cars/demo cars&trucks
delivery van & truck fleets and a small fleet of tow trucks/bmw735&740/hyundai santa
fe big V6/94 cbrF2/.... probably forgetting some......
anyways theese i have personaly experimented with different brands of fuel and
have all performed best on chevron 94 octane. When traveling i pick the newest
looking stations with the highest octane rating available.Oxygenated or recently
advertised Nitrogenated fuels,due to the laws of phisycs,will increase consumption
decrease mileage.They are around only because of #1 cost/profit #2 enviromental
considerations(stop-gap/band-aid) and rarely and only when absolutely requiered#3
wear/reliabilty issues such as the lubricity additives that replace lead.The same is
also true for diesel. As well as the gases.( not fresh in my mind but,)propane used to
be around 120 octane. Nowadays it is at best around 112-114. I know this because
of research into ultra high performance turbo propane engines.Untill internal
combustion engines can be run on a single molecule "pure"fuel like hydrogen, as
opposed to complex chains of hydrocarbons we will all have to live with rapidly
degrading variable (questionable) quality fuels.
Whew..... LOL at least i warned ya....
and just for fun: Did you know that an engine burns air not fuel? the fuel is only
needed as a catalyst to ignite the air. and engines burn punds of air not liters or
gallons or cfm.
ever hear of a peanut oil engine? lol bet you have and never knew,
Rudolph Diesel (yep thats the guy) invented "diesel" or compression ignition engines
and intended them to run on abundant and cheap peanut oil(at the time it was
cheap and abundant since than markets have been manipulated away from that idea)
diesel fuel is so resistant to ignition that it will extinguish a lit cigarette when it is
dipped into diesel? DO NOT TRY IT! if you HAVE to try it you are moron and
probably a good candidate for the Darwin awards. why try it when you could just
beleive someone who says they know it works. I DO NOT WANT YOU TO TRY IT
AND TAKE ABSOLUTELY NO RESPONSIBLITY WHATEVER HAPPENS IF u TRY IT!
altho the liquid diesel fuel will put out your cigarette , you risk igniting the
VERY FLAMMABLE VAPOURS above the liquid.
you can make "diesel" fuel out of anything organic like wood dead cats dogs deer
plants etc....
Ford is currently working on (has been for a few years)an algea that makes "diesel"

us army is currently using, and retail available kits and conversions exist for KLR dual-
sport/off road kawis for diesel fuel

[klarowe]

so is pure gas better or worse than 10%???? i actually read that whole thing... lol. The place I get it from is a mom & pop shop but it seems to really be helping not only my bike but also my truck. The truck seems to run smoother with a lot less pinging (it would ping slightly even with 93 octane). Maybe im just losing it, but thats what i think i've noticed... lol

[Zooks]

so is pure gas better or worse than 10%???? i actually read that whole thing... lol.

You're a brave man, I didn't. I got about 3 lines in and went "screw this". A block of text like that needs a machete to get through it.

Torqued, what's with using half the line, and how about some paragraphs every so often?

*sheesh*

[LarryA_Texas]

translated...

I think he said it's better to buy gas from high-volume stations.

Otherwise you might be buying old (bad) gas.

Also, I think a friend of his got water in his car and it caused damage.

There may have been something else.

[Zooks]

I think he said it's better to buy gas from high-volume stations.

Otherwise you might be buying old (bad) gas.

Also, I think a friend of his got water in his car and it caused damage.

There may have been something else.

Cheers. I owe you a beer.

[duaneage]

Alcohol has half the calories per gram gasoline does. It has higher octane but the octane advantage is a mute point on any engine with either compression below 9.5 to 1 or fuel injection engine management systems. In short,. it's advantages are really none but the problems are many. Adding 10% ethanol with an octane rating of 112 to fuel with standard rating of 87 means they can tweak the mixture a bit and save on other petroleum byproducts used in gas manufacturing. But you are not going to get a performance boost from the stuff.


Ethanol absorbs water, not good for engines or tanks that hold it. If we had plastic tanks like modern cars and bikes it would be less of a problem. POR-15 the tank and fuel bowls and hope for the best.

Ethanol raises the price of fuel while providing less energy. Lousy deal for consumers, great for ADM and the farmers. Energy required to make it overrides any savings on dead dinos. Running a car on 85 or even 100 percent ethanol yields mileage that is horrible at best. Try 12 MPG in a small pickup and less than 6 in a SUV.

Ethanol burns and releases water vapor. Before you start cheering this wonderful byproduct remember that water vapor is the CHIEF substance that traps heat on earth. Yes, it is a major green house contributor. Sorry to break that news.

My personal experience with this stuff showed a drop in mileage of 4 around town and 5 on the highway. I was lucky to find some real gas on a trip last year and the highway mileage was noticeably higher.

YMMV but tell your elected thieves, er I mean representatives to vote no on E20 and higher blends. You'll be glad you did.

[LarryA_Texas]

Ethanol burns and releases water vapor. Before you start cheering this wonderful byproduct remember that water vapor is the CHIEF substance that traps heat on earth. Yes, it is a major green house contributor. Sorry to break that news.

Just asking since you mentioned it:
Isn't water a byproduct of combustion of all petroleum products? Isn't that why water runs out of car exhaust and isn't a jet's contrail basically just ice forming from the water being spewed out the tailpipe? If that's so, why would ethanol be any different?

Second, if water in the fuel is a problem (I know jet fuel traps water) are there not additives that dispel the water? Would such a product be useful in motorcycle gas tanks? Jet airplanes often add Prist or something similar to reduce the water and to kill something that grows in that water. Some kind of algae, I think.

Piston airplanes don't add Prist because the gasoline they burn doesn't mix with water. So if ethanol introduces water in the fuel it would make sense that you would want to do something about it.

Anyone got the straight dope on this?

[bwringer]

Burning anything (gasoline, alcohol, wood, propane, etc.) releases water. They demonstrated this in high school chemistry class. Weren't you paying attention?

I do agree wholeheartedly that it's crazy, expensive, and wildly inefficient to manufacture alcohol for fuel using food crops, but we'll leave aside that particular nugget of political and financial insanity for now.

As far as worries about water in fuel, keep in mind that Heet and similar additives are simply alcohol -- the alcohol mixes with any water that's already in the tank and enables it to mix with the gasoline and get burned. The mixture doesn't burn very well -- it'll make the engine run like poo if there's much water in there, but it does work up to a point. So it's a little silly to dump in a container of Heet in the winter when your gas is pretty much already 10% alcohol.

With that said, you can see that if you have very much water sloshing around at the bottom of your storage and/or vehicle tanks and then introduce fuel containing alcohol, you could have a bigger problem.

[sachsaca]

I think if you'll read the multiple posts some like and some say it doesn't matter and some say the Ethanol is better. Look at the big picture, all bikes have different tunes and my bike may like ethanol gas and yours may like 100% gas. The post about high volume gas stations is point on, less chance of getting trash from them. If my two cent's would count I have a GEO Tracker 16 valve 1.6 ltr.engine made by Suzuki and I get alot better gas mpg with the 100% gas. It's Sunoco 93 oct and the little engine loves the stuff, my bike is a just purchased on and I cant speak for it. I had a GS 1100 E and it ran like a scallded dog on the stuff. (I actually saw my step father accidentally throw some water he boiled chicken in over the deck and hit a dog, thats fast.) So in the big scheem of things it may depend on YOUR bike and what it likes. Too may toe, to maa toe, it just depends on your specific bike tunage. I can say this though, the butterfly valves on the carbs on my vehicle are now clean as a whistle and the gas mileage is increased, city and highway, that and .89 is good for coffee.