Countersteering?

[rphillips]

Do any of you know at what speed counter steer begins to work??? Does it begin at the same speed on all 2 wheeled vehicles??? It seems to be about 18 or 19 mph on most motorcycles. Kids learning to ride bicycles won't experience counter steer, because they probably won't go fast enough for counter steer to be used. I've always wondered exactly where it starts.

[bonanzadave]

about 18 or 19 mph on most motorcycles.

Dont really know either but Im guessing its a lot slower than that.

[Raven457]

Do any of you know at what speed counter steer begins to work??? Does it begin at the same speed on all 2 wheeled vehicles??? It seems to be about 18 or 19 mph on most motorcycles.

My MSF instructor told us we'd need to get up to at least 15-20 MPH to feel the effect, so that'd be my guess.

[Agemax]

it will only come into effect at higher speeds. it is all down to gyroscopic and rotational forces. you will not experience it on a bicycle!

[Hammered]

The problem with this subject is the word steering. To some it would indicate turning in the direction you want to go. Im sure many riders learned to drive before riding and as a driver, thats how its done. With a bike, youre not steering to turn the bike as much as youre steering to lean the bike to have that steer. I know its all semantics but the physics are as posplayr stated. Its not what you think about doing while doing it. Even children who just learn to ride a bike dont think about countersteering. They just do it. It becomes second nature, as it should. I think over thinking the action could cause more problems than not knowing how it works.

[Agemax]

all you need to know.......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter_steering

[Sandy]

Do any of you know at what speed counter steer begins to work??? Does it begin at the same speed on all 2 wheeled vehicles??? It seems to be about 18 or 19 mph on most motorcycles. Kids learning to ride bicycles won't experience counter steer, because they probably won't go fast enough for counter steer to be used. I've always wondered exactly where it starts.

Try walking a bicycle down the driveway with it perfectly balanced upright and holding the bars very lightly with 2 fingers and turn the bars slightly left. What happens? When I do it, it sure wants to fall to the right. What countersteering actually does is momentarliy put the motorcycle off balance by moving the wheels out from under it's line of travel. This is what induces a turn in the opposite direction, not gyroscopic effect of the wheels or other such things. Gyroscopic effect may make it easier or harder depending on the setup but if you had a way of moving the tires out from under the bike in one direction at 0 mph, the bike would naturally fall the other way.

[Counter]

Steering a motorcycle is all about leaning. I was always told that whenyou counter-steered, you were forced into leaning into the way you wanted to turn. You can do the same thing by just leaning left if you want to go left and vice versa for right.

Way back in the 70's , when I was just learning to ride, there were pictures of motorcyclists leaning to turn. The pics described an inverted ice cream cone shape (wider at the bottom) and talked about geometry and lean angles. I don't remember all of them, but that is the general theory.

If you think about it, what happens when you turn the handlebars right? You automatically lean to the left, right?

Countersteering works at all speeds. I have used it as slow as 10 mph (I think). I normally don't look at the speedometer at such slow speeds. It is how I change lanes on the freeway as well. Just a little nudge on the left handlebar and I am in the right lane.

Nice discussion.

[posplayr]

Try walking a bicycle down the driveway with it perfectly balanced upright and holding the bars very lightly with 2 fingers and turn the bars slightly left. What happens? When I do it, it sure wants to fall to the right. What counter steering actually does is momentarily put the motorcycle off balance by moving the wheels out from under it's line of travel. This is what induces a turn in the opposite direction, not gyroscopic effect of the wheels or other such things. Gyroscopic effect may make it easier or harder depending on the setup but if you had a way of moving the tires out from under the bike in one direction at 0 mph, the bike would naturally fall the other way.

Sandy, (and others)
That is correct but there are still speed related dependencies. I'm trying to keep this discussion practical and not too theoretical and think so hopefully it will be taken in the light. So at the risk of making this discussion even more complex here goes.

See the link below. It tries to answer the question of at what speeds counter steering is more relevant. As you will see in the video below, riders are using counter steering on a Motorcycle at 3 mph and a bicycle at 10 mph.

These are experienced riders and and the link shows how the riders are using the counter steer to initiate a quick turn. If you remember back to your MSF course (I know it was probably 30 years ago for you but 2 years ago for me) where you had to do figure 8's in 1.5 and 1 parking lanes. Well to do that effectively you do need to counter steer to get the bike over in time for the short radius turns. It is like the quick turn the motorcycle rider did at 3 mph.

http://www.obairlann.net/reaper/motorcycle/beginner/countersteering.html

So in general, if you need to get you bike over (into a lean angle quickly), then the counter steer is the fastest way to do that. Ignoring, hanging off or any other weight shift technique, lean angle is a direct function of velocity and turning radius (i.e. G_c=V^2/R; tan(lean_angle)=G_c/G). The smaller the radius for a given velocity the higher the bank. The faster the speed for a given radius the larger the angle of lean.

At low speeds you don't have to use counter steering, I know my ED with round profile tires, turns easily with weight but it will do it faster with a quick counter steer. At higher speeds with an approaching turn, you have to counter steer as any attempt to turn the front wheel will cause your weight to pitch to the outside of the turn and you will feel get that being help up feeling.

So there is a speed dependency of counter steering, as the video illustrates. At higher speeds and higher lean angles counter steering is more or less (an depending upon the bike) a required condition to go through a turn. As a lower speed technique, counter steering helps initiate quick turns which could not be as easily achieved with weight shift.

Jim

P.S. I thought I was doing pretty good recovering from the trip. It seems that sleeping on the ground for a week will take it's toll It was god times. I'm cleaning the road grime off the ED.

[Agemax]

Why does a motorcycle work this way? The motorcycle's wheels act like gyroscopes and create gyroscopic forces when moving at speeds above five miles an hour. One of the most interesting effects related to a gyroscope is a phenomenon known as precession. When a force is applied perpendicular to a gyroscope's axis of rotation, the resulting motion is perpendicular to the input force. This motion is called precession, and it's what causes the steering in motorcycles to be counterintuitive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7Ow9W0MIac

also known as DRIFTING

[Sandy]

Sandy, (and others)
That is correct but there are still speed related dependencies. I'm trying to keep this discussion practical and not too theoretical and think so hopefully it will be taken in the light. So at the risk of making this discussion even more complex here goes.

""This is what induces a turn in the opposite direction, not gyroscopic effect of the wheels or other such things. Gyroscopic effect may make it easier or harder depending on the setup but if you had a way of moving the tires out from under the bike in one direction at 0 mph, the bike would naturally fall the other way.""

Correct you are and I should have included the speed comment in this sentence as gyroscopic effect is a function of both mass and speed (rotation).

[Big Al in NY]

If you can turn your bars at speed you're a better man than I.

Exactly, the force you apply to the bars is blocked/met by the gyro effect of a spinning wheel(literally won't let the wheel turn(much, it does move a little)) so your force takes the next easiest(less resistant) path(like electricity) which happens to be leaning the bike over. The more force the quicker it happens. Keep applying force and the bike will keep going over until you stop it. In a tight switch back you're literally lifting the bike back up with the handle bars.
My main ride is a v65 magna with buckhorns. I ride it rather aggressively at times in the twisties. I wish I had a pressure gauge to see exactly how many pounds of countersteering pressure is at the bars at times. Enough to make my arms sore after ripping through the Hawks Nest a bunch of times.


Ever heard of Keith Code's NO BS bike? http://www.superbikeschool.com/machi...bs-machine.php

I don't preach countersteering because I think I'm expert or anything. I don't think I'm the only one who knows about it either. I just know there are a lot out there that don't know about it. I love riding and I want others to love it too(for a long time). I've turned hundreds of riders on to it and haven't had a one not appreciate it. It seems knowing what to tell the bike to do when it doesn't do what it normally does is important?

Big Al

[posplayr]

""This is what induces a turn in the opposite direction, not gyroscopic effect of the wheels or other such things. Gyroscopic effect may make it easier or harder depending on the setup but if you had a way of moving the tires out from under the bike in one direction at 0 mph, the bike would naturally fall the other way.""

Correct you are and I should have included the speed comment in this sentence as gyroscopic effect is a function of both mass and speed (rotation).

Actually Sandy you were correct the first time. Gyroscopic has little to do with the 1st order vehicle turn dynamics. Roll and turn rate are related through what is called centripetal (the force on the tires forcing you to continue into the turn) and centrifugal forces (the force trying to push you to stand up from the turn). Gyroscopic is something else and had little to do with these first order effects which is why even the 3 mph low speed turns are aided by the counter steer.

By turning the wheel to the outside at low speed, the small centripetal force and more importantly the weight of the bike cause you to roll into the turn with little effort. When you start actually turning (progressing around a radius) the centripetal force holds you up and stops you from continuing to fall to the ground.

While gyroscopic forces are there, they play a small if not insignificant role in countesteering dynamics. The speed sensitivity I spoke of is that counter steering helps you achieve the desired roll angle faster, the roll angle is a direct function of speed and radius of turn. Gyroscopic forces are related to the 2nd moment (Moment of rotational inertia which is essentially fixed for a given wheel tire) and the speed of rotation alone.

I would not have gotten into a physics description, but we want to quell any notion of gyroscopic having any bearing.

[Agemax]

Actually Sandy you were correct the first time. Gyroscopic has little to do with the 1st order vehicle turn dynamics. Roll and turn rate are related through what is called centripetal (the force on the tires forcing you to continue into the turn) and centrifugal forces (the force trying to push you to stand up from the turn). Gyroscopic is something else and had little to do with these first order effects which is why even the 3 mph low speed turns are aided by the counter steer.

By turning the wheel to the outside at low speed, the small centripetal force and more importantly the weight of the bike cause you to roll into the turn with little effort. When you start actually turning (progressing around a radius) the centripetal force holds you up and stops you from continuing to fall to the ground.

While gyroscopic forces are there, they play a small if not insignificant role in countesteering dynamics. The speed sensitivity I spoke of is that counter steering helps you achieve the desired roll angle faster, the roll angle is a direct function of speed and radius of turn. Gyroscopic forces are related to the 2nd moment (Moment of rotational inertia which is essentially fixed for a given wheel tire) and the speed of rotation alone.

I would not have gotten into a physics description, but we want to quell any notion of gyroscopic having any bearing.

I would not have gotten into a physics description, but we want to quell any notion of gyroscopic having any bearing

but it does , THAT IS PHYSICS ffs look up gyroscopic effect on motorcycle wheels

[Big Al in NY]

I don't know what it's called but for a simple street rider as myself and I believe most others here, agreeing that the bars won't really turn because the spinning tire won't let them is good enough?

1. You can press or pull on bar.

2. You turn in the opposite direction that you want to go.

3. The bike leans over instead of the bars turning.