Countersteering?

[morpheus666]

Can this be moved to Off-topic? I have to agree with the minority, and site BS..... There is no way someone could ride a motorcycle and turn the bars to the right and go to the right, at any speed above 20 or so, this seems like a troll thread.

[posplayr]

but it does , THAT IS PHYSICS ffs look up gyroscopic effect on motorcycle wheels

As I previously confirmed, gyroscopic effects does exist as it is one of the terms in rotational equations of motion, however they have little bearing on the subject of 1st order principles of counter steering.

Please refer to your (my) prior Wikipedia reference for any description that provides a determinative relationship between "gyroscopic effects" and counter steering. If you find one, it will be a 2nd order or high order effect. .

The principle effect is how counter steering rolls the motorcycle into a turn. The principle factors are the CG of the combination motorcycle/rider and how far that exists above the road which is the principle center of roll rotation. Compared to the this roll moment of inertia, the wheel moment of inertia is very small by probably an order of magnitude less. Given the low speed counter steering demonstrated in the video, gyroscopic precession is virtually non existent.

I could do some back of the envelope calculation but it should Elbe obvious that gyroscopic progression is not the reason the bike lays down when you steer the front wheel to the outside of a turn. It is the weight of the bike falling when the front wheel moves from beneath the C.G. that causes roll. This can be demonstrated at almost zero speed where the front wheel angular momentum in inconsequential.

Of course at 60 mph, the front wheel angular momentum starts to have an effect that gives the counter steering a different characteristic. However if you recall the simplest high school demonstrations of gyroscopic precession, you will realize that precession can't generate a roll angle. The classic example if to sit in a swivel chair with a spinning wheel while holding the axles. When you try to rotate the axles in azimuth like you would a handle bar, the angular momentum of the wheel cause the chair to spin (assuming your feet are off the ground). It doesn't cause the wheel to roll over as the observed benefit of counter steering is.

[posplayr]

Can this be moved to Off-topic? I have to agree with the minority, and site BS..... There is no way someone could ride a motorcycle and turn the bars to the right and go to the right, at any speed above 20 or so, this seems like a troll thread.

how do U figure a technical discussion on motorcycle dynamics is "off-topic"

Never mind it is not OT.

[Big Al in NY]

There is no way someone could ride a motorcycle and turn the bars to the right and go to the right, at any speed above 20 or so.

I agree 100% with that but I don't agree with everyone knowing it already. Informing others is why I started this thread and think it should continue. I see in some of the responses there is interest in knowing more and also the need for it. It can be an intimidating subject but once broken down and explained it's much simpler. As a rider you just need to know how to use it.

I was already in the middle of a left turn going straight when I tried to turn left to go left because the bike wasn't leaning like it normally did. I almost wrecked as I kept going straight and realized I didn't have control of bike and didn't know why. It kept me off the road for almost 20yrs before it was explained to me.

My bud "knew how to ride" and had been for 15yrs until his v65 sabre going 115mph on the interstate slowly got ate by a sweeper with me right behind him watching. He couldn't get the lean initiated and was straight up with a last ditch foot stuck out when the bike touched the shoulder dirt and instantly started tank slapping then sliding on the shoulder. The rider IS member Rodman's brother Dave. He was tossed into the medium and walked away with a black eye.

He had heard of countersteering but always thought it was too technical for his simple riding style. Basically he didn't understand it or realize how simple yet important it was and kicks himself for not listening earlier. He uses it now and quite profitiently too.

Sorry for rambling but every one needs to know about it! It's my mission. j/k (sort of)

Nice forum, I've been reading alot.

Big Al

[reddirtrider]

I don't think you can turn at speed without countersteering - at least a little. If I remember correctly one of the superbike schools had a bike setup with bars attached to the frame, not the forks and it was almost impossible for the riders to negotitate the track. Wether you know it or not, you're countersteering. Probably not as well as you could, but you are.

Well, I took some time to actually find an article written by keith Code on countersteering. He's the guy that rigged up the bike too, so it's a pretty good read.

http://www.vf750fd.com/blurbs/countercode.html

[bonanzadave]

A-friggin-men.

"The Bottom Line. Steering a motorcycle results from the process of pushing the inside bar forward, the same angle and direction the forks rotate in the steering head bearings. You can also pull on the outside bar. You can do both push and pull. That is what turns it, that is all that turns it with any degree of accuracy, efficiency, quickness or smoothness. That and only that, No BS."

Keith Code

[gane]

Countersteering

Math and Physics were never my 'forte" however, "countersteering" is a fact. learn it and use it. as unreal as it may sound, during the period of "superbikes", era riders would BEND the then standard '7/8"s bars when changing directions on tight courses, and packed spares.. and, if you read about Bonneville racers, sometimes the rules changed... IE, up to @ 180 it was OK, but after 200 MPH, steering reversed... Different venues offer different skills.In MHOP trials riders are the most skilled, followed by speedway, roadracers,flattrackers, 1/4 milers, then the rest of us. each venue has differnt threashshold levels and danger levels. each offers slightly different teqniques, Personally I'm a dismal trials rider, but the experiaiance I garnered flat-tracking and moto-xing have aided my road racing enourmously. For new riders. Think out your' ride in advance.most newby casualties are from indecision/doing nothing at all, take a class. enjoy the sport, theres nohing like it,luck g

[posplayr]

I agree 100% with that but I don't agree with everyone knowing it already. Informing others is why I started this thread and think it should continue. I see in some of the responses there is interest in knowing more and also the need for it. It can be an intimidating subject but once broken down and explained it's much simpler. As a rider you just need to know how to use it.

I was already in the middle of a left turn going straight when I tried to turn left to go left because the bike wasn't leaning like it normally did. I almost wrecked as I kept going straight and realized I didn't have control of bike and didn't know why. It kept me off the road for almost 20yrs before it was explained to me.

My bud "knew how to ride" and had been for 15yrs until his v65 sabre going 115mph on the interstate slowly got ate by a sweeper with me right behind him watching. He couldn't get the lean initiated and was straight up with a last ditch foot stuck out when the bike touched the shoulder dirt and instantly started tank slapping then sliding on the shoulder. The rider IS member Rodman's brother Dave. He was tossed into the medium and walked away with a black eye.

He had heard of countersteering but always thought it was too technical for his simple riding style. Basically he didn't understand it or realize how simple yet important it was and kicks himself for not listening earlier. He uses it now and quite profitiently too.

Sorry for rambling but every one needs to know about it! It's my mission. j/k (sort of)

Nice forum, I've been reading alot.

Big Al

Wow 15 years and doing 115 and did not know what countersteering was. I guess he never took an MSF class? MSF class should be mandatory.

[TheCafeKid]

If you want a simple way of examining the effect of "countersteer" without smashing your bike into the pavement, a nice way to check it out is to balance a ball bat or a broom stick in your hand on end. See which way you have to move your hand to get the broom to fall in any direction.

In actuallity a motorcycle, or any two wheeled vehicle is in a constant state of "falling". You countersteer CONSTANTLY whether you're turning or not to keep the bike in line. Its just that the corrections are so minute, you dont even realize you're doing it. In my mind, countersteering has more to do with BALANCE than anything else. When you need to get the bike to lean into a turn quickly, you need to knock it off centerline quickly. As your broomstick will show you, the best way to make the bike fall off center to the RIGHT, is to move the bars slightly to the left.

I think, when everyone sits down and really starts to examine the concept, it confuses people. Yes, its a good idea to understand the basic concept, but a bigger problem, especially for NEW riders, comes from THINKING about it while riding. Its so convoluted and backwards it may actually cause someone to have an accident. Because we've essentially been "countersteering" or better still "counterbalancing" our entire lives, whether it be walking or riding a bicycle, you simply accept THIS is how its suppose to work.

Not long ago, Steve's oldest son brought home a bicycle that was VERY interesting to attempt to ride. It had been modified so that turning the bars left ACTUALLY turned the wheel RIGHT. To ride it, you basicly had to SHUT OFF countersteering in your head...Its very hard to do.

[mighty13d]

How it was explained to me is to picture the front tire as two water glasses fused together at the open ends so thats the tallest part at the middle of the tire. If you turn slightly one way, it will make the other side of the tire coming in contact with the road and pull you around just like if you were rolling a glass on a table. It's a very very simplistic view but it helps explain why it would pull you around and how it leans the bike over.

[Pete Logan]

but a bigger problem, especially for NEW riders, comes from THINKING about it while riding.

When I came back to riding I found that one way to initiate a countersteer is to turn your head just a fraction towards the outside of the upcoming bend.

Seems this slight movement is sufficient to change the angle of your shoulders and put just a little pressure on the inside bar.

[Big Al in NY]

Thanks for the positive responses on such an important part of motorcycling. I've read alot on the subject and have come to the conclusion that the most important thing is to know how to use it rather than "why" it works. Seems like even "the brains" of the world can't agree on "why", lol.

I never took the "msf" class but agree, it should be mandatory. In NY you even get your license at the end of it(assuming you pass). On the other hand, getting your license without ever leaving the parking lot is scary too.

You have to do something 1000x for it to become a reaction. Practice, practice, practice. I like to practice on the straight aways, basically putting the bike where I want in my lane. Then I move to the corners changing lines in my lane. I figure it prepares me for the time someone or something is in my lane and I need to react quick.

Want to hear how countersteering killed a deer?

Big Al

[Counter]

I don't know how the deer could hold the handlebars with no fingers.

[reddirtrider]

When I came back to riding I found that one way to initiate a countersteer is to turn your head just a fraction towards the outside of the upcoming bend.

Seems this slight movement is sufficient to change the angle of your shoulders and put just a little pressure on the inside bar.

Pete your head should look inside on a turn. Your bike will always tend to go where you look. You're confusing the heck out of me. I fail to see why you need to trick your hands into countersteering by moving your head.

This isn't rocket science. You guys are making this much more complicated than it is. Read the Keith Code article. He knows more about riding and riding techniques than almost anyone on the planet.

Countersteering is only one aspect of cornering properly. Another is to look where you want to go - never off to the side of the road and not straight ahead.

I'm gonna quit reading this thread as it makes me question if I want to ride in a GS group. Maybe we need an ambulance chaser.

[Sandy]

Countersteering is only one aspect of cornering properly. Another is to look where you want to go - never off to the side of the road and not straight ahead.

Absolutely, it only initiates the turn. What happens after that is dependant on the motorcycles setup ie: tires, rake, trail, swingarm configuration, etc. People tend to confuse all these items in the theory of countersteering. If a motorcycle has neutral cornering characteristics, some do, you only need to countersteer into and out of a corner without tweaking the bar to maintain your line. My '85 FZ750 with stock size tires was like this, with larger tires it wasn't. If it does not have neutral cornering characteristics, like many, you have to constantly be tweaking or maintaining pressure on the bar to maintain your line. While this is in effect countersteering it is only to over come the particular handling quirks of that particular setup.