Weird charging problems

[chef1366]

The battery is not a switched power source. It is always on.

[Speedo]

True but as long as bike is off, stator is not charging and RR has nothing to regulate, so I'm not buying that logic. The sense wire senses charging sys voltage, so I agree that it should be connected with a switched pos+ with minimal voltage loss (such as coil mod wire fr relay for example), but if you hook sense wire to battery positive, are you guys telling me that the RR will just stay "on" indefinitely and drain the battery? I don't think so and that's why I don't buy your logic. Someone please intervene and set us all straight.

[posplayr]

Someone please intervene and set us all straight.

Bill is right

[psyguy]

thanks, guys. it seems there's more work to be done...

getting the RR sense wire to read as close as possible to the battery voltage is the next goal.


please forgive me for showing the double feemale bullet connector, i didn't mean to offend anyone


matchless, i had a look at the coil relay mod on your site. would you be able to send me a bigger picture of your setup with the new fusebox? i'm thinking if i need two new fuses (coil relay and the RR wire) and a take off point for the coil relay + wire, i may as well look at upgrading the fuse box at the same time (and have all the fuses in one place and of one type only).
thanks

[Speedo]

Right about what? Everyone knows battery is not a switched power source (including me believe it or not), so that is not the question. The question is if you hook the RR sense wire direct to battery, will it drain the battery? I think not. While bike ig switch is off, RR will do nothing. While on, RR will regulate stator output to reference voltage it "sees" from the sense wire. If sense wire is hooked direct to battery positive, as long as battery is 12v or over, sense wire will tell RR not to allow stator current to charge since battery is good/full.

Same concept as sense wire tied into a "good" (ie not 9v but closer to 12v) switched wire. At least this is how ShirazDrum explained it to me and it makes total sense to me.

Shirazdrum while visiting, and who is an electrical engineer so I tend to listen contends this hookup is fine/won't drain battery or I'm sure he wouldn't have suggested that as a possible "bypass"/alternative hook up for RR sense wire as opposed to my brake light switch which is only getting 9v on my bike.

If I'm wrong, fine, but please re-explain with some detail/logic so we can all understand what is the deal and be "set right" once and for all.

[Speedo]

psyguy - as our theoretical discussions continue, meanwhile for you (and me as well), the best thing to do is to
a)do the coil mod, and

b)test the voltage of the wire your RR sense wire is spliced to. as you say, it needs to be close to 12v. I'm guessing you will be unpleasantly surprised (but maybe not....test it). If voltage is low with current (pun intended) connection, then

c) change sense wire connection to coil mod switched "hot" going to coils. Virtually gaurenteed to be really close to 12v due to the added relay. That is route I'm going with mine (as soon as my new used RR arrives).

[Matchless]

matchless, i had a look at the coil relay mod on your site. would you be able to send me a bigger picture of your setup with the new fusebox? i'm thinking if i need two new fuses (coil relay and the RR wire) and a take off point for the coil relay + wire, i may as well look at upgrading the fuse box at the same time (and have all the fuses in one place and of one type only).

Psyguy,
You need a fuse block with about 8 fuses, blade type fuses. On my site, I think page two, there is a picture "New Fuse box fitted" It was taken before I redid my wiring.

You can now divide the new fuses up into a commoned group of switched and another group of non switched fuses as per what you have working and what other upgrades you intend doing later.

You need to buy one that is easy to common up, 2 or 3 of the fuses and then the same for the other 5 or 6. I could only find some with spade terminals and ended up addisionally soldering each spade terminal to the lug on the fuse box (this is important to make it stay there permanently and give a good contact).

The commoning was done on one side with a heavy bit of solid copper wire and the lugs bent at right angles, except the one for the wire out to the ignition and the other back from the ignition, all soldered. I made a small backing plate to bring mounting holes same as old fuse box, bent a lip up on the commoning side to protect it and filled that little furrow with Silicon rubber, covering the commoned out parts fully.

Try to retain the existing wire in the reddish brown sleeving from the battery to the fuse box. This is a safety feature and can be called a sacrificial wire, it functions as a fusable link if you short the fusebox to ground before any of the fuses.

Additional fuses now may be:
Unswitched accessory jack also use for battery tender.
Unswitched direct feed to new coil relay (relay contacts to coil).
Unswitched direct feed to new horn relay (relay contacts to coil).
Unswitched for R/R (replacing your inline fuse)


If you need any more detail feel free to PM me.

[posplayr]

please forgive me for showing the double feemale bullet connector, i didn't mean to offend anyone

If you dont get rid of it v.s. just hiding it you will be offended by your GS charging system (R/R and stator) buring up in the next 6 months after you move that connector a little and it comes loose.

[Steve]

The question is if you hook the RR sense wire direct to battery, will it drain the battery? I think not. While bike ig switch is off, RR will do nothing. While on, RR will regulate stator output to reference voltage it "sees" from the sense wire. If sense wire is hooked direct to battery positive, as long as battery is 12v or over, sense wire will tell RR not to allow stator current to charge since battery is good/full.

Most of that is true, but there is one little detail missing.

The stock r/r is a passive device. It takes the AC from the stator, chops it into DC, then regulates by shunting excess. If there is nothing coming in, there is nothing going out. The replacement r/r that has a 'sense' wire is more of an active device. The 'sense' wire does not turn the r/r off, it just gives it a signal to show how much to regulate. While it is sensing, which it will do constantly, if connected to the battery, it will be telling the r/r to increase voltage. Since there is nothing coming in from the stator, there is nothing to increase, but it keeps trying. THAT is what will drain your battery. If your 'sense' wire is connected to a switched wire, it won't be drawing that little bit of current.

Think of it another way. You have a transistor radio in your hand and you can change the volume to your preference. They shut down the transmitter, so you turn up the volume knob so you can hear it. Nothing coming in from the transmitter, so there is nothing to adjust and your battery goes dead in the process.

.

[posplayr]

Most of that is true, but there is one little detail missing.

The stock r/r is a passive device. It takes the AC from the stator, chops it into DC, then regulates by shunting excess. If there is nothing coming in, there is nothing going out. The replacement r/r that has a 'sense' wire is more of an active device. The 'sense' wire does not turn the r/r off, it just gives it a signal to show how much to regulate. While it is sensing, which it will do constantly, if connected to the battery, it will be telling the r/r to increase voltage. Since there is nothing coming in from the stator, there is nothing to increase, but it keeps trying. THAT is what will drain your battery. If your 'sense' wire is connected to a switched wire, it won't be drawing that little bit of current.

Think of it another way. You have a transistor radio in your hand and you can change the volume to your preference. They shut down the transmitter, so you turn up the volume knob so you can hear it. Nothing coming in from the transmitter, so there is nothing to adjust and your battery goes dead in the process.

.

The R/R sense wire has some finite input resistance (resistance to ground). For example, there may just be a simple voltage divider from the sense voltage to compare to an internal Zener reference voltage. That voltage divider will sink current whether the stator is charging or not.

If someone had the time they could put an ohm meter on it (sense to ground), measure the resistance, figure the current a 12V sense point would create and estimate how long that current would take to bleed down the battery.

[Steve]

Yep, you and I (and a few others) understand the internal workings, I was just trying to keep it simple for those that don't.

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[posplayr]

Yep, you and I (and a few others) understand the internal workings, I was just trying to keep it simple for those that don't.

.

Yep one of the hardest parts is knowing who your audience is

[chef1366]

Y'all need to talk down to us yardbirds.

[49er]

Y'all need to talk down to us yardbirds.

Agree with ya Bill. These auto/mc sparkies have their heads in the ether.

[posplayr]

Y'all need to talk down to us yardbirds.

Agree with ya Bill. These auto/mc sparkies have their heads in the ether.

Sounds like someone did not do to good in "Sparks and Magic" class.