Weird charging problems

[Steve]

Sounds like someone did not do to good in "Sparks and Magic" class.

Tain't no such thing as "Sparks and Magic"




It's all SMOKE.




.

[psyguy]

i have rewired and installed a new fuse box and cleaned all connections (yet again).
i got the charging voltage down by 0.3V.

it now reads:
14.7V with lights OFF
15.3V with lights ON

is 15.3V still too high?

other than replacing both handlebars switches i don't think i can bring the voltage drop at the sense wire down any further. any suggestions?

[mighty13d]

If someone had the time they could put an ohm meter on it (sense to ground), measure the resistance, figure the current a 12V sense point would create and estimate how long that current would take to bleed down the battery.

Why not just make sure the R/R is grounded to the battery like is a suggested mod and then connect a meter between the sense wire and the positive terminal on the batter? (with the bike off) If there is a reading, then the R/R is going to drain the battery. Period. If it's 0, then the R/R isn't going to. Pretty straight forward test.

[almarconi]

I would suggest swapping the R/R with a stock suzuki R/R and see what voltages you get. IMHO that much voltage is going to cook your battery.

[Matchless]

i have rewired and installed a new fuse box and cleaned all connections (yet again).
i got the charging voltage down by 0.3V.

it now reads:
14.7V with lights OFF
15.3V with lights ON

is 15.3V still too high?

other than replacing both handlebars switches i don't think i can bring the voltage drop at the sense wire down any further. any suggestions?

Psyguy,
I may have missed your reply, but what is the voltage if the sense wire is connected directly to the battery, temporary just for a test?
You should not be going via any handlebar switches only the ignition switch where it returns to the fusebox - Orange wire.

[psyguy]

Psyguy,
I may have missed your reply, but what is the voltage if the sense wire is connected directly to the battery, temporary just for a test?
You should not be going via any handlebar switches only the ignition switch where it returns to the fusebox - Orange wire.

1. with the sense wire connected directly to the batt positive:
tested at 2000rpm (charging measured at the battery):

- headlight OFF = 14.30V
- headlight ON = 14.15V


2. with the sense wire on the main (orange) switched wire:

- headlight OFF = 14.7V
- headlight ON = 15.3V


i was referring to the handlebars switches asuming they would be a major contribution to the voltage drop at the sense wire when i turn the headlight ON

[Speedo]

psyguy - good test. those readings suggest that whatever wire (orange or whatever) you have the sense wire connected to has low voltage and therefore making the RR think the battery needs more voltage than it really does. The sense to batt+ is proof. Test the voltage you get on orange wire where the rr sense wire is currently (pun intended) connected. I but you get like 9 or 10v just like I did on my old bike.

I would be VERY interested in seeing test results as Mighty13d suggested because I myself am still skeptical that hooking sense wire direct to batt would drain it (so is ShirazDrum btw). I may just have to do the test once my new RR arrives just to satisfy my own doubt/curiosity.

IN ANY CASE, find a wire with higher voltage to hook rr sense wire to and I bet you are "good to go". Have you done the "coil relay mod"? The hot to coils off the relay would be a perfect candidate: switched direct from battery, with presumably a new wire, and minimal voltage drop (mine reads 11.9v for reference compared to 9.1v that my orange brake light wired that rr sense was connected to previously).

Hope this helps. Keep us posted!

[savy453]

charging

when the engine is not running k/o what is your total amperage draw ?

[lucabond]

I have read the whole post and know you have all new spade connectors but in my opinion even those can be a poor choice. I did the same thing when I first replaced my RR. Everything worked fine but before going on a trip i looked everything over and found my new spade connectors were turning brown from heat. So either i did a bad crimp job or used poor quality connectors either way they didn't last. i cut them all out and soldered all the connections after that.
I have found if you touch the wires on either side of a connector and feel a temperature difference between the wires the connection is a poor 1 and should be replaced. Just my 2 cents. Good luck

[psyguy]

when the engine is not running k/o what is your total amperage draw ?

9AMP or so, i posted these results earlier

[posplayr]

1. with the sense wire connected directly to the batt positive:
tested at 2000rpm (charging measured at the battery):

- headlight OFF = 14.30V
- headlight ON = 14.15V


2. with the sense wire on the main (orange) switched wire:

- headlight OFF = 14.7V
- headlight ON = 15.3V


i was referring to the handlebars switches asuming they would be a major contribution to the voltage drop at the sense wire when i turn the headlight ON

OK looks like you are close enough that if you just get yore connections clean you will be fine . Voltage drop means resistance and causes the differenecs between the R/R output and the battery output. U are close enough that the R/R output probably doesn't change as the various combinations you have described at the battery.

Keep up the good work.

[psyguy]

OK looks like you are close enough that if you just get yore connections clean you will be fine .
U are close enough that the R/R output probably doesn't change as the various combinations you have described at the battery.

a bit of humor's always welcome

i promise to post a pic of the new fuse box. it's all so tidy that i would hate to move the sense wire to the battery and disturb my new pristine setup

i'll keep attending to cleaning the connectors as i work on the bike, i may be able to further improve the results, but i dont fancy opening the handlebar switches AGAIN (i cleaned and greased them recently, but i think the push-springs might be weak and making for poor contacts).

i'll keep an eye on the electrolyte level at the battery and take it from there. if it starts dropping i can take that to mean that battery is being cooked, right?

as long as there's no danger to the RR and stator, i'm happy to risk a battery

[Matchless]

Psyguy, I think I may be confused now as the handle bar switches should have nothing to do with your voltage sensing or voltage drop.

If you follow the battery feed from the battery, heavy red to starter solenoid, fusable sleeved red wire to the fuse box (unswitched), then a 15A fuse with a red wire going to the ignition switch - this is the unswitched battery feed.

Then from the igition switch there is an orange wire going back to the fuse box and terminates on the ganged side of a couple of 10A fuses - this is the switched battery and you should have your sense wire connected here, not on any of the orange wires going out of the 10A fuses. From your replies you have this done.

The only switch that can then be causing this problem could be your ignition switch unless you have a wire connection issue in the above red and orange wires.

With the bike running just measure the voltage between the ground on the battery terminal and the 15A fuse red wire going to the ignition switch and the orange wire coming back from the ignition switch and see if there is a significant difference with lights on and off.

I have never opened one and cleaned it, but consider that your lights also go through it and the more voltage drop there is the hotter the contacts may be getting, thus a clean up or replacement would be a good idea.

Your tests have proven the R/R to be in perfect condition as 14.2 V is a good charging point. Your stator seems to be good as well. It is just your sense point that needs to be corrected and I would rather try to get it down from 15.3V to 14.2V or closer to it.

[psyguy]

Then from the igition switch there is an orange wire going back to the fuse box and terminates on the ganged side of a couple of 10A fuses - this is the switched battery and you should have your sense wire connected here, not on any of the orange wires going out of the 10A fuses. From your replies you have this done.

yup, that's where the sense wire is connected to.

With the bike running just measure the voltage between the ground on the battery terminal and the 15A fuse red wire going to the ignition switch and the orange wire coming back from the ignition switch and see if there is a significant difference with lights on and off.

ok, i'll do this.


my thinking was that with the headlight ON there a quite a few additional connectors involved (compared when the healight is OFF) and that they would all be contributing to the voltage loss at the sense wire when the headlight is ON. is that not correct?

[Matchless]

my thinking was that with the headlight ON there a quite a few additional connectors involved (compared when the healight is OFF) and that they would all be contributing to the voltage loss at the sense wire when the headlight is ON. is that not correct?

No or rather yes in a way. Basically each bad connection or switch acts as a resistance and can be seen as such for simplicity sake. A resistor is what its name indicates, resistance to current flow.

Multiple resistances in series act as voltage dividers and in your case the ignition switch and main fuse is in series with the load, thereafter any additional load switched on, is switched in parallel with the parts of load, (ignitor and coils in parallel with the headlights). The load resistance thus becomes smaller and more current is drawn via the battery and the ignition switch and main fuse that are in series.

If the ignition switch has a resistance, then as total current to bike load rises through it, so the voltage drop across it increases. In actual fact anything happening on the load side will affect the current which in turn affects the voltage drop.

If any of the load parts (i.e. headlights) also has a switch or connector with a bit of resistance then a voltage drop will also be measured across that switch or connector, but that voltage drop is just going to be determined by the current draw of the headlight and the size of the resistance formed by the light switch contacts. In actual fact that resistance actually reduces current flow, meaning that less current is drawn via the main fuse and ignition switch, maybe only measured in milli Amps, but still a reduction.

Basically what I am saying in short is that your load is in series with your ignition switch and main fuse, and is dynamic, meaning it changes as per current requirements, and when drawing your maximum load with all components drawing power you will have the maximum current flowing through the ignition switch, giving you the maximum voltage drop over it. The voltage drop across the light switch is is not going to "add" anything noticeable to your ignition switch drop, but if you put the lights on and push the brake pedal and switch the flashers on at the same time it sure will.

The theoretic ideal is that a switch and a fuse should behave the same as a length of wire and have zero resistance to the current flowing through it. In practice even a length of wire has some resitance, depending on its diameter and length.

Maybe posplayer will chime in here as he is good at explaining the "finer" details in more detail.