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Higher idle when warm = intake air leak.

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    Higher idle when warm = intake air leak.

    Recently I made a reply to a topic. I said that a motor that idles properly when cold but then idles too high once warmed up has probably got an intake air leak.I'm not talking about a 200-300 rpm rise. A motor in good mechanical condition can have a a few hundred rpm rise or drop just because of elevation,outside temperature,etc, I'm talking about larger rpm increases. A few of you are not too sure of this and one person wondered how this 'phenomenon' can happen. First of all,any motor with a carb can develop a high idle because of a sticking slide or throttle valve. Also,a faulty ignition advance can give you a high idle. These things happen but more common is an intake leak and using my own experience as an example,I'll try to explain.
    I bought my bike new and it ran perfect for one year. Then one morning I started it,the same way as always and could tell it was acting a little cold-blooded and sluggish. I figured it would clear itself as soon as it warmed up. After about 20 minutes I came to a stop and noticed the tach read 1800 rpm's. 10 minutes later it read 2200 rpm's. I did'nt know what to think.(I was 22 at the time,not too much mechanical knowledge)So I turned the idle knob and set the idle down to 1100 rpm. I continued riding and all was OK. Then I went home and parked the bike overnight. The next morning my bike would'nt start, using the normal routine.I had to give it more choke than normal and it barely started. It would not keep an idle until I turned the idle knob back up again. I knew this idle up and down thing was'nt right so I took it in to the shop.They found 1 intake boot o-ring was bad and they said the air leak caused the high idle.They were right. Later, I read about fuel mixtures and what happens when they go into a cold motor and a hot motor.
    This is my understanding of how an intake leak effects your motor. You start a motor that has an air leak.(The leak may be hard to notice until it gets bigger. Aging rubber parts are usually to blame. Sometimes the damaged rubber won't allow air in until it becomes warmed up and is more pliable.) As you crank the motor,it draws fuel and air through the carbs and into the combustion chamber. This atomized mixture needs heat to help it vaporize. Since the motor is not hot yet,the mixture will not vaporize well. So to promote combustion we use the choke. As soon as the motor starts warming,we no longer need the richer choke mixture. Now as the motor gets hot and combustion is good,the intake volume increases and the intake leak is more noticable. This leak results in a lean condition.The mixture becomes "over vaporized"and ignites too easily,causing the motor to run erratically at a higher than normal rpm. So that's it. More air=lean condition=erratic combustion=higher rpm's.
    You can try to live with it and keep turning the idle up and down,but you're asking for trouble. The fuel in the mixture helps cool the motor.With too much air in the mixture,your motor runs lean and hotter. This can lead to actually melting the plugs,burning valves and burning holes in pistons. As a side note:when starting a cold motor that is in GOOD mechanical condition,do not open the throttle,this only by-passes the choke/starter circuit and will actually make starting more difficult.
    And on the seventh day,after resting from all that he had done,God went for a ride on his GS!
    Upon seeing that it was good, he went out again on his ZX14! But just a little bit faster!

    #2
    Looks like I'll be taking it apart agn.

    Im thinking about just getting some gasket seal and putting it in with the O-rings. Or I might get some actual gaskets and put them between the manifolds and head with the O-rings in place as well. Is there a tried and true way of getting the O-rings to seal the right way, and for as long as they are in good condition?

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      #3
      Everything you stated makes perfect sense. However, engine temp can affect idle, even without an intake leak. If the carbs are a tad rich, idle will drop if the motor gets extremely hot. If the carbs are on the lean side, idle will tend to run high, and sometimes "hang" up for a few seconds. (At least, that's been my experience).

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Gary McLellan
        Everything you stated makes perfect sense. However, engine temp can affect idle, even without an intake leak. If the carbs are a tad rich, idle will drop if the motor gets extremely hot. If the carbs are on the lean side, idle will tend to run high, and sometimes "hang" up for a few seconds. (At least, that's been my experience).
        That's true.Even motors that are running very well can go up or down 200-300 rpm's.Outside temp's and elevation can do this. That's why some carbs allow you to make minor adjustments,temporary if you like,such as the side air screws.The point of my topic was regarding larger rpm differences,these are caused by a definite leak.
        And on the seventh day,after resting from all that he had done,God went for a ride on his GS!
        Upon seeing that it was good, he went out again on his ZX14! But just a little bit faster!

        Comment


          #5
          For sure, engine temp can change idle rpm. My 750 on an evening ride, regardless of length, idles at 1100 rpm (the same rpm it idles at in the morning once warmed up and the choke is off). On a hot midday ride, the idle will be about 1300rpm. I dont adjust anything back and forth. The bike is fine.

          Earl



          Originally posted by Gary McLellan
          Everything you stated makes perfect sense. However, engine temp can affect idle, even without an intake leak. If the carbs are a tad rich, idle will drop if the motor gets extremely hot. If the carbs are on the lean side, idle will tend to run high, and sometimes "hang" up for a few seconds. (At least, that's been my experience).
          Komorebi-The light filtering through the trees.

          I would rather sit on a pumpkin and have it all to myself than be crowded on a velvet cushion. H.D.T.

          Comment


            #6
            Re: Looks like I'll be taking it apart agn.

            Originally posted by chrisdnoel
            Im thinking about just getting some gasket seal and putting it in with the O-rings. Or I might get some actual gaskets and put them between the manifolds and head with the O-rings in place as well. Is there a tried and true way of getting the O-rings to seal the right way, and for as long as they are in good condition?
            I would not try installing some additional gaskets to go with the o-rings. A typical gasket material,such as fiber,would not be good for sealing against air leaks. It gets very hot at the manifolds and there is a lot of expanding and contracting.There is also a lot of vibration here,so I think the o-rings are the best air seals.I don't know what would be the best stuff to put on them to help them last. I have tried white lithium grease and silicone grease, but I found they both mostly disappeared in less than a year. Recently I tried some regular marine grade bearing grease. I don't know if it's staying in there but I'm not taking it apart to find out. There was a small amount of it that oozed out when I torqued the bolts. I wiped it off and the small amount left has not run or anything,so I think it's staying in there. But any of these will be better than nothing. Installing the o-rings 'dry' just does'nt make sense. Also,do not over torque the o-rings. About 9 ft/lb torque is good,at least on the mm size bolts my 1000 has. Anything much more is just crushing them and shortening their life.
            And on the seventh day,after resting from all that he had done,God went for a ride on his GS!
            Upon seeing that it was good, he went out again on his ZX14! But just a little bit faster!

            Comment


              #7
              my first bike, 78GS550, had a rising idle problem. after a cold start it would idle around 2200 RPM and when it would be warm it would go up to 2500 and really warm 2700 RPM.

              my new bike, was very cold blooded at first because i didn't clean the carbs. i did the 'mess around with the throttle stop screw' thing and could never get it set right. eventually i settled for the 1500 RPM cold idle and 2500 RPM warm idle.

              recently i swapped the carbs to the new bike, and i know they're clean. i decided to use Black RTV around the rubber intake boots. i smeared it as best i could around the carb boots, and mounted the new carbs. i probably didn't get EVERY area becuase the inner spots are tight; i suggest using a Q-tip for that.

              after the RTV job, and the same carbs that has a rising idle, the bike starts up great and with a cold idle at 1500 RPM, and a warm idle at 2000 RPM max. i'm VERY happy with this, and i think the RTV helped a lot. i suggest people with rising idle's try this quick fix and see how it helps you. i have not tested it over a long period of time, but for now it has helped a bit.

              my experience with the old bikes too is that some of the cylinders dont like to fire when the idle is down below 1500 RPM. i think that is probably due to an overly rich mixture or weak coil. if the bike will idle below 1500 RPM there will be no throttle response above that, or it will require two quick bursts to get the engine to respond. another sign of a weak ignition system, imo.

              with the new dyna coils and ignition, i have immediate response at a 1500 RPM idle, which leads me to maybe try holding a 1000 RPM idle. it feels kinda wierd when i'm riding and i clutch coast and the engine drops to 1500 RPM...i'm used to hearing/feeling it idle higher. i guess i'm just adjusting a good running engine.

              ~Adam

              Comment


                #8
                Nice info folks! I guess my bike is fairly good, although I was told by mechanic it has a bit of air leak, and it seems it is set up to run a bit rich. It idles at 1000rpm when cold and around 1200 when hot (1200-1300rpm are specs). When it is extremely hot, it goes down to 900-1000. Anyway I am happy I don't have to work the carbs

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