'78 GS1000E Up and running, Almost ready for paint.

[OldVet66]

So I take it I need a DJ stage 3 kit and 4 #15 pilot jets. I'm guessing that melt down in the mountain traffic jam had more to do with the carbs than stop and go traffic. I lost 1.5 quarts of oil during that episode. It seems I go one step forward and two back lately. I also guess pinging kind of sounds like little bits of gravel rattling around in the cylinder head on hard acceleration up the mountain. I don't think I was meant to ride much this year. I guess this is the forced excuse I need to dig into one of the other motors, and change it when I finally get the carbs sorted out. Any advice on the best place to get the parts? Would this present build have worked on a stock setup?

[KEITH KRAUSE]

So I take it I need a DJ stage 3 kit and 4 #15 pilot jets. I'm guessing that melt down in the mountain traffic jam had more to do with the carbs than stop and go traffic. I lost 1.5 quarts of oil during that episode. It seems I go one step forward and two back lately. I also guess pinging kind of sounds like little bits of gravel rattling around in the cylinder head on hard acceleration up the mountain. I don't think I was meant to ride much this year. I guess this is the forced excuse I need to dig into one of the other motors, and change it when I finally get the carbs sorted out. Any advice on the best place to get the parts? Would this present build have worked on a stock setup?

Your way of describing pinging sounds right. It's not near as loud as a typical car motor and not as "deep" but it sounds like you're pinging. Classic lean condition, though poor timing can sometimes lead to pinging, I'm pretty sure yours is mixture related. Pinging is always at its worst when the engine is under heavier load. Other things that happen when running lean is you'll get "spitting" out of the pods. Most often at low to mid/steady speeds and colder outside temps. Your 20 pilot jets may have helped to compensate, though compensation jetting always leads to other problems. Surging is the classic lean sign. The motor never seems to be happy at various rpm's. Steady cruising makes it easier to feel. Fantastic gas mileage is another sure sign.
A stage 3 DJ kit is a good idea. I help lots of members here try to make the stock needle/separate jets thing work but I always recommend the kit. Some members say they can't afford it so we give it a shot. Some say they're happy while others finally go for the kit. Truthfully, many owners don't know what a properly tuned/jetted bike feels like so if it just runs decent they're happy. So I'm not sure how many of the owners who went with the stock needle are a good gauge.
I haven't bought a kit for a long time so I'm not sure where the best place is to buy.
Your present set up wouldn't work for a totally stock bike either. Your jet needle position could stay as is because that's the factory position. The "3" at the end of the number you provided is the factory e-clip position. Your main jet would need to be 95. Your pilots would have to go back to 15 and be sure to order the correct length (there are 2 lengths of Mikuni pilot jets for your carbs).
You would then probably need to tinker with the pilot fuel screws a bit, and then adjust the side air screws for best rpm. Then vacuum synch.
Finally, with pods, you remove the 2 floatbowl vent lines and leave the ports open. But with stock intake, replace the vent lines and be sure they're routed under the seat and never kinked.
There are of course other items that may need to be done since I can't be sure of the work you had done. Float levels. Manifold condition/manifold o-ring condition, etc. Valve clearances. Ignition timing. Compression.
We can help you do the work. Many members may live near you and can show you how or help with tools. We're a good lot here.
Some people provide a service and that's great, but I don't like it when the truth is stretched to try to get that business. You trusted someone and all I can say is you didn't get what you really thought you were getting. What I've typed here is true. I can help you later if you want to get this bike jetted right. But you need good compression. That's a basic tuning necessity.

[OldVet66]

I have two more motors, one is a 3,800 Mi. motor, that should be in, or can be put in top condition quickly, but I'd really like to leave it on the '79. The other crated motor is an unknown. A friend gave it to me. It was supposed to have been built to run at Bonneville, but who knows. That is the one I'm going to look at first. It needs the left cover, and a starter. It can have the parts, and the Dyna S ignition off this motor. I knew this one had some problems, but was hoping to get through the winter with it. It has been lean since I got it with the old carbs, and yes it does spit back as you described, with the old and new carbs. I'm having a hard time believing the new carbs got built the way they did, it doesn't make any sense. It sure ran nicely though, and I was loving the mileage. I'm retiring this motor until I can get around to replacing the top end, maybe from an 1100. With the pinging that has been going on for a long time and the melt down on the mountain, I'm sure it needs it. I really didn't know what the pinging was until I put it together, thinking about what you have been telling me. I will certainly look you up for the carb tuning When I have one of these motors checked out for valve adjustment and compression. I guess this will also give me time to get the painting done.

[renobruce]

The carbs have 117 Main jets, 20 Pilot jets and 5DL36-3 Needles clipped to the third slot.

Holy crap! You are way lean. Your overheating problem is probably your carbs.

[renobruce]

Any advice on the best place to get the parts? Would this present build have worked on a stock setup?

I'm pretty sure I have some #15 pilots. I'll dig through my stuff in the morning and let you know. You can have them for free.

[KEITH KRAUSE]

OK Vet. Just let us know and we can help you get it jetted. VM carbs are easy to work on if you take your time and ask any questions first.
PS: way to go Bruce on the pilot jets. You da man!

[OldVet66]

Thanks guys, this has been an interesting experience. After wasting a riding season waiting for the carbs, and dropping a hefty chunk of change, I feel like they should be sent back for proper jetting. I don't know if that is going to happen, you all seem to have had experience with him. My local Suzuki shop confirms everything you have said. I really don't want to drop another $136.00 on a jetting kit I already theoretically paid for. Will I just be beating my head against a wall, or is there a chance he might make it right? I just want to ride before I'm too old to enjoy it ( I'll be 62 tomorrow), and I'm certainly not going to wait another three or four months to do it. I don't mind winter riding as long as there is no snow or ice. Thanks for the offer Bruce, would you PM me about the pilot jets.

[renobruce]

Thanks guys, this has been an interesting experience. After wasting a riding season waiting for the carbs, and dropping a hefty chunk of change, I feel like they should be sent back for proper jetting. I don't know if that is going to happen, you all seem to have had experience with him. My local Suzuki shop confirms everything you have said. I really don't want to drop another $136.00 on a jetting kit I already theoretically paid for. Will I just be beating my head against a wall, or is there a chance he might make it right? I just want to ride before I'm too old to enjoy it ( I'll be 62 tomorrow), and I'm certainly not going to wait another three or four months to do it. I don't mind winter riding as long as there is no snow or ice. Thanks for the offer Bruce, would you PM me about the pilot jets.

I'd call wired george and tell him to at least give you $136.00 back. I'd say that's the least he could do considering his jetting could have destroyed your engine. That way you can buy a jet kit and do it right. We can step you through it, no problem. I found those pilot jets...I'll PM you for your address.

Oh, and happy birthday!!

[KEITH KRAUSE]

Thanks guys, this has been an interesting experience. After wasting a riding season waiting for the carbs, and dropping a hefty chunk of change, I feel like they should be sent back for proper jetting. I don't know if that is going to happen, you all seem to have had experience with him. My local Suzuki shop confirms everything you have said. I really don't want to drop another $136.00 on a jetting kit I already theoretically paid for. Will I just be beating my head against a wall, or is there a chance he might make it right?

First of all, happy birthday!
I can only assume George did a good job of cleaning AND installing all new inner o-rings(?) AND adjusting the floats AND replacing any suspect part he found. If so, you got part of what you paid for.
I'm not here to argue with him should he chime in. He knows where he stands with me. I personally have little doubt he cleans the carbs and inspects for obvious problems. But after several experiences others have shared and my own personal discussions with him in the past, I believe he doesn't replace ALL inner o-rings, EVERY job. I also believe he replaces some suspect parts with used parts that pass his "visual" inspection. I could go on.
I just don't believe he does the complete job he states. He claims to make them "bolt on" but he really isn't satisfying that. He even claims he vacuum synchs them on HIS test bike. If he does, he's wasting his time because you can only synch them accurately on YOUR bike. I don't think he's that dumb. I think the synch thing is another part of his advertisement to make his service sound good to customers who just don't want to mess with carbs. Carbs, like electrical, can intimidate many owners. His business thrives on that. He makes you think you won't even need a carb vacuum tool. You'll save more money. But he knows if he told you they must be synched, then maybe you'll try it yourself. Heck, maybe you'll just do the whole thing! He doesn't want that.
As for jetting, he has fooled even me to some extent because I once believed he knew more about the subject. He's had some experience in other areas and I thought if he does this carb business then he must have picked up some good knowledge along the way. Obviously not.
He should've told you a stage 3 kit would be a wise investment instead of his "custom" jetting...but like many other things, maybe he doesn't even know the DJ kit works or exists.
I think he did part of what you paid for but I understand you're being ticked about this. Now, he can claim his jetting is correct and even show up here and argue with me/us, or, he can change the jetting to what makes sense and not charge you for the extra jetting or shipping. If he does the latter then at least he's trying. However, I'd ask what re-jetting adjustments he plans on before just accepting it. You can verify it with us, providing you trust us, which I think you do now.
I'll be back in a few. Don't want to push the time limit here and maybe lose things.

[KEITH KRAUSE]

Back again. I was thinking about replying even before your last post but figured you'd post here if you wanted to continue. I thought maybe you'd given up on riding this year. If you didn't, and I can see you haven't, I wanted to offer some help on the jetting that could at least make things better and allow you to get through the year. Not necessarily perfect jetting, but much better than what you have now and better for the bike.
I'm no fan of jetting a bike that has other tuning issues, especially poor compression as you state. Poor compression simply doesn't allow proper combustion. Combustion and jetting are one. Known proper jetting on a well tuned bike can have different results on a bike with tuning problems. You can't blame the jetting in these cases.
Because I can see you just want to ride awhile longer and deal with this later, I can suggest some better jetting, similar to what works on other bikes like yours. Because I have no way of knowing what other tuning/maintenance may be needed on your bike, I can only say that my suggestion should make things better but I don't consider it my final jetting. I just want to make your bike run so it's not so lean. It may still be lean but not nearly as much. I also don't want to go too far and make you run rich. Your poor compression really complicates trying to avoid going too rich. Normally, you always error on the rich side so to speak. A little richer is better than a little leaner in most cases. In your case, richer may result in serious issues like unburned fuel/backfiring, plug fouling and very poor mileage. So my idea is to richen you up so you're not so lean. You may still get lean related issues, some obvious, some not, but you'll be better off and have much less chance of running so hot as you have.
Also, I may be wrong but it seems to me that you may not want to deal with any re-jet issues that turn into a trial and error thing that requires you to get too deep into this. I'm offering a "band-aid" fix for now. I would fully expect it to run better and I KNOW it will be closer to the correct fuel/air ratio though not final. I don't mean to go on and on but I just want to say this stuff is important to me and it's really a temporary suggestion. If your bike started acting up and gave you more trouble, then it's because of the overall condition of your bike, not the re-jetting.
I suggest the DJ kit. Even this kit can have minor issues. DJ says that. Some bikes performance varies. However, issues are generally tunable to the point that they are minor. You can't expect perfection at every point. I still get a "spit" or two on colder mornings as we've talked about before. I fine tuned mine until I reached the point where any further attempts to richen it resulted in worse issues on the rich side. It happens. I tried a 17.5 pilot jet and it worsened things. The DJ needle really does work better with the stock 15 PJ. My bike runs great but I suppose it's not perfect in every way. If you go with the kit there's a limited adjustment that has worked well on most bikes here. We'll help you with that if you do. You can't expext to get it right the first try but many times it does work out that way.
If you go with the stock jet needle for now then I can help.
Main jet. I flinch a little here because of your compression. Part of me wants to say to settle for some 125's or 127.5's to avoid a rich possibility. I KNOW a properly tuned 1000 with your parts runs great on a 138 DJ main that's approx' the same as a 130 Mikuni. I also don't want you to waste money. Normally, 130 is it. It might be wise to go with a 127.5 in your case. It would be way closer to what works best than your 117.
Jet needle. Normally, if the stock needle can be made to work, a minimum 1 1/2 positions richer is needed (position 4 1/2), sometimes the bottom (5th) position is needed. I want to say position 4 1/2 in your case but again, I'm worried it will end up rich. Richening your current needle position by only 1 position is still lean from my experience but it would be a significant change for the better and make you less lean. You'd run MUCH less hot. Position 4 1/2 would also require you to get some jetting spacers to make the 1/2 position change (provided in the DJ kit). Position 4 can be made simply by moving the e-clip. Up to you here. Play it safe(?) and go position 4 but understand it's still on the lean side or try richer?
Pilot jet. Your 20's won't work, with or without a future jet kit. The stock 15 (in combo with a stock jet needle) will be on the lean side more often than not. Richer pilot fuel screws can sometimes be enough to assist the stock PJ but don't count on it. Testing is always required. If it doesn't work, then you get a 17.5 PJ. I suggest for now, go with the 15's and richen the PJ screws to 1 1/2 initially. Test. Fine tuning will probably be needed so there's no way around it. If the 15's are still lean, it shouldn't be seriously lean. You may get some minor issues but nothing that's damaging your motor.
After the above changes you MUST do the following or the jetting will be compromised.
Remove the 2 floatbowl vent lines. Leave the ports open.
Initially, adjust the side air screws to 1 3/4 turns out from lightly seated. You will need to adjust them using the highest rpm method to be accurate. 1 3/4 in in "the ballpark" but can't be considered correct for your bike. Do you know how?
Vacuum synch. Assuming the slides were properly bench synched, this shouldn't be difficult. However, poor/uneven compression can make synching nearly impossible.
After this, your bike should run much better and closer to how it should run. Yes, mileage will drop some. How much I can't say but normal loss is 3-4 MPG (from stock) on a well tuned bike. The pinging should be at least lessened. The motor not nearly so hot.
Let us know what you want to do. Hope things work out well. If you wish, do the work yourself. We can help. Carbs are a bit spooky ar first but if you allow us to step you through before you do something wrong, it comes out well. You just need patience and good fitting tools to take apart the carbs. Jet changes are easy. Only the jet needle has to be handled with more care. The bench synch is easy. I have detailed info on how at this site. The vacuum tool synch can be learned or shown to you buy a nearby member(?).
Now, I'm off to the turkey! Happy Thanksgiving!

[OldVet66]

I intend to replace this motor with one of the others, so you can assume that when I get into adjusting the carburetors, the compression and valves will be correct. I will keep you informed of the progress. If it's January or February, I'll still ride weather permitting. After all of this, I intend to see everything done right. I'll contact George and see if he will do anything about it in a quick turn around. If not, I'll get the stage three jet kit, because I refuse to waste another riding season "Waiting for Godot". I'm going to get the crated motor ready for inspection tomorrow. I"ll have to order valve seals, and get the starter motor and left case cover changed over, which might lead to polishing the covers before I put it together. I'll dredge this thread back up when I have a good solid motor to work with. I take it that the two vents you are talking about are on the #2 and #4 carburetor at the same level as the vacuum port.

[renobruce]

I personally wouldn't let George touch my carbs again. Try and get some of your money back, or at the least have him send you the right jets. Do it yourself and you won't have to wonder if it was done right (again).

[OldVet66]

I have been thinking about that. With all the time lost, and the work ahead of me to replace the motor, I tend to agree with you. The old motor was not perfect by any manner of means, but would have lasted through next year or more if the carburetors had been built as advertised. It ran well until the overheating. Afterword, I could tell it wasn't the same. I guess the fact that it is running at all is a tribute to how tough these motors are. We will see how things work out. I do have a complete set of O-Rings, and new boots. My plan was to ride with these carbs while I learned how to rebuild them for the '79.

[KEITH KRAUSE]

Sounds good. I think you can do the work yourself.
Years ago it was harder to get help if you didn't know how to do something. With this site, you just ask questions and we can show you how to do something right. With carbs, the most common problems arise if you use poor fitting tools or over-tighten things or try to take short cuts. By far the most involved part of working on your VM's is the jet needle/slide assembly. You must use a good fitting Phillips screwdriver to loosen the 2 screws down in the slide. If you were to strip the head(s) you'd be in trouble. But it's just common sense. Don't force things or be impatient with carbs. It takes a little finger dexterity to work/make adjustments on the slide/jet needle assembly but you can learn. Lay parts down exactly as you remove them and they'll go back right.
If George did the cleaning part right then you shouldn't have any trouble with common problems like stuck air screws and things like that. You will need to buy a vacuum tool. To be honest, some people struggle a bit when learning to synch but we always can see them through if they ask. A very good bench synch will get you running decent but there's no replacement for a careful vacuum tool synch. If you own the bike long enough you'll need the tool for later adjustments since the carbs won't hold the synch forever. If you forget how a part goes back you always have the other carbs to use as a model. Keep the parts to each carb separate too because some parts wear as a matched set such as the float needle valve and it's seat. If George didn't install stainless steel float bowl screws then I suggest buying those. Another suggestion is to buy Allen heads to replace the Phillips bolts used on your manifolds if not done already. At that time inspect the manifolds for cracking, etc. Then replace the o-rings in the manifolds and give a coat of hi-temp bearing grease to help them last. Things like that. I don't mean to jump around with stuff to do/check, just give you some idea of what may need doing.
As for jetting, I've given some info to cover most anything you decide on but just ask and I can give you my best guess knowing exactly what we're working with. If possible, I do suggest buying the jet kit. It will work, where choosing the stock needle separate jet thing may not work as well at all throttle positions. I'll give you the jetting set up that most commonly works with DJ. Many here have said it was spot on the first time with only basic pilot fuel and air screw adjustments needed to fine tune. If a change of the jet needle was needed then I really doubt you'd have to make more than 1 change.
If you go with the stock needle and we're running a healthy motor then I'll give you that info too but you can expect some trial and error and the chance you won't be satisfied. Whatever you choose, let us know.

Yes, the 2 floatbowl vent lines are attached as you described. DJ recommends removing them to avoid fuel starvation, especially in crosswinds. I've tested it myself and always recommend removing them too. I've never had a problem with dirt/dust entering the ports either if that is a concern to you. My bike and a few local friends bikes showed significant fuel starvation at various times with the lines still attached. Some say they don't notice it much but they should come off.
Also, if you like, I can set up the jetting for your carbs. While in there, I can verify the float levels and inner o-rings condition. I'd assume the carbs are clean and there's no hidden issues/trouble due to non-factory parts or damaged hardware. I'm pretty good at bench synching but even my best synch I still consider only as a prep for start up purposes and it must be followed by a vacuum tool synch. Pilot fuel and air screws would be set to a ballpark setting. You would then warm up, adjust idle, set air screws using the highest rpm method and vacuum synch. Then road test all 3 jetting circuits at the required throttle settings and make any necessary adjustments. With the DJ kit I doubt you'd have to change the jet needle position. Position 4 is most commonly used and we've tried it on bikes in many climates including England with good results. With the 138 mains there's little doubt too that it should work, though changing the main jets is very easy. The pilot circuit generally takes some fiddling with because minor changes can give significant results. The pilot circuit is sensitive to any changes and can be a little harder to test for when it comes to reading the plugs. It also effects start up and idling, not just cruising at smaller throttle openings. So there's more too pay attention to. If you don't know how, we can show you how to test the performance of each circuit and get plug reads.
So you see, there are no "bolt on" carbs and you must, at least, do some synching and final tuning. So it's best you learn as I think you plan to. I just wanted to give you the option of sending them to me if you like. There would be no charge of course. The carbs are heavy though and I believe basic UPS shipping would be a good $35/40 round trip. A couple of members have sent their carbs to me in the past and it was about that much. We try to help each other here.

[OldVet66]

Thanks for the offer Keith. I think I'll try this myself. I'll need the experience. My friend has four of these bikes in his basement, and I have another one to bring along eventually. If you would be so kind as to list which tools and gauges I'll need for this work, I would appreciate it. I have access to a manometer, but I would rather get my own tools. I briefly contacted George and he insists that what I described couldn't have happened, so I see where this is going. He just lost 5 rebuild jobs. I'll be ordering the Stage 3 kit soon and post back for the initial setup, so the carbs will be ready to begin adjustment when I get the new motor ready. Are all valve seal replacements ok, or should I be ordering OEM?