Starting a long dormant engine.

[DMorris]

Sure sounds more and more like compression problem.
You have checked timing and have squirted fuel and ether into the cylinders. You have checked that there is a spark. As was mentioned earlier, the formula is fuel/air, spark at the right time and compression.
Is there any chance the head is not seated? Even with starting fluid, some compression is needed to get a reliable 'pop'.
I would think that if the head was too far out of place, you would hear the weezing of air from between the head and cylinder upon cranking the motor but maybe not. Time to break out the compression gauge if you want to put numbers to it but if you place your finger over the plug hole while cranking, you should feel the push of air past your finger. If you put the palm of your hand over the intake manifold, you should feel suction pulses while cranking.

Don't give up; you will find it sooner or later.
I'm waiting to hear just what the hell is going on.

Good luck!

[spyug]

Well guys this is truly bonkers.

I got the boat battery charged and I connected it to the bike battery. Lots of juice and it cranked like a banshee. Easily twice the speed of my GS. Tried each of my 3 sets of carbs, shots of gas to the cylinders, shots of ether to the cylinders. Pulled all of the plugs and they're sparking blue, blue/white. Choke on, choke off, no throttle, throttle....tried every combination. Absolutely no indication of combustion. Not a peep, burp or bang. Nothing.

All that is left is to check the compression so thats first on the agenda tomorrow.

I'm now almost at the point of trying my spare engine. It looks rougher than this one and likely has more mileage but with about 30+ hours trying to get this one going I'm thinking I'm beating a dead horse.

We'll see what compression comes up and that may help a decision.

Stay tuned for tomorrows edition of "How the Kat Motor Turns but Doesn't Fire".

Cheers guys,
Spyug

[KitKat]

have you checked your starting gear and starter clutch yet?

[spyug]

newGS300Lowner, I'm not following your question. As I've mentioned a few times, the engine turns freely and quite smartly with the second battery in position so there is no problem with the starter setup.

I think its down to compression or timing is slightly off ( although it looks smack on). I will confirm the compression numbers tomorrow but the finger test tells me there is pressure build up in each cylinder so I'm sceptical but I've been wrong many times before.

There is something simple and likely stupid going on here I just wish I could crack it before it drives me totally bonkers.

Cheers guys,
Spyug

[KitKat]

here:

Question
I have a 1993 virago 535 and the starter just spins. I purchased a rebuilt starter and it did the same thing. I opened the side cover to look at the gears. Everthing looked normal, but what I saw was the starter clutch outer assembly looked to be cracked in half. 1)would this cause the starter to just spin? 2)If so, how do I remove the rotor assembly and then the starter clutch assembly? Thank you, Bill.

Q: "...the starter clutch outer assembly looked to be cracked in half. 1)would this cause the starter to just spin?

A: Yes

http://users.metro2000.net/~cdc/magna/tech%20section%20and%20issues/starter%20clutch/starter%20clutch.htm

that website has some good information. I understand that certain bikes have repetitious problems with starter clutches, but maybe on your long dormant engine, something got "jilted" and i was thinking it was the reason you were just spinning without any combustion

[Big T]

here:

Question
I have a 1993 virago 535 and the starter just spins. I purchased a rebuilt starter and it did the same thing. I opened the side cover to look at the gears. Everthing looked normal, but what I saw was the starter clutch outer assembly looked to be cracked in half. 1)would this cause the starter to just spin? 2)If so, how do I remove the rotor assembly and then the starter clutch assembly? Thank you, Bill.

Q: "...the starter clutch outer assembly looked to be cracked in half. 1)would this cause the starter to just spin?

A: Yes

http://users.metro2000.net/~cdc/magna/tech%20section%20and%20issues/starter%20clutch/starter%20clutch.htm

that website has some good information. I understand that certain bikes have repetitious problems with starter clutches, but maybe on your long dormant engine, something got "jilted" and i was thinking it was the reason you were just spinning without any combustion

So, what he's asking is

Did you verify that the starter is turning the engine over?

Sounds like you did verify if you're confirming spark intensity

[duaneage]

When we were trying to get cloudbreakmd's bike started, we noticed air being sucked back in through the exhaust because the dipstick who replaced the head gasket had the cams in wrong. Cloudbreakmd didn't do the job and farmed it out to someone that pretended to know how to do it.
You could see a towel being pulled the wrong way when it was cranked.

Don't assume anything. Compression on the engine was only about 50 lbs and it turned incredibly easy, too easy in fact. That was the giveaway.

Combined with the clogged carbs it was saddled with two major problems. Ran good when we retimed the engine and swapped carbs.

If the plugs are blackened clean them off. New plugs would be a good idea just check the gap for .6 to .7 mm

[Guest]

When we were trying to get cloudbreakmd's bike started, we noticed air being sucked back in through the exhaust because the dipstick who replaced the head gasket had the cams in wrong.

Just to follow up on that thought, is it possible the intake & exhaust cam shafts are swapped?

[duaneage]

Certainly is but unlikely. In this case they were about 90 degrees out of sync

[old_chopper]

This post has pulled me in like a $1.00 movie! I was so hoping to check this morning and hear that it roared to life. Don't give up now or many of us will be left wondering "what if" forever. I wish you were 1500 miles or so closer so I could see whats going on myself.

[spyug]

Thanks guys. I appreciate all the interest and support. I feel now that I can't stop as I'll be leaving everyone in the lurch kinda like the silly ending to the Sopranos.

I really do need to get this figured as I'm not sleeping well and the old lady was coomplaining this morning about my tossing and turning and mumbling about "cams and ignition". Ididn't even know I talked in my sleep. At least I'm not calling some other womans name

To go over a few points:

a) the starter and gear are fine as the engine turns over and spins away just like it should. When hand turned it puts up a bit of resistance so that makes me think again compression is decent.

b) the cams were removed when the head came off but the cam gears were left in place. As you know the gears are clearly marked "In" and "Ex" and the "Ex" has marks 1 & 2. The "Ex" cam goes to the front of course. so no they are not missplaced.

c) the plugs are brand spanking new and clean as a whistle. They spark blue or blue white. I checked voltage at the battery, then at the coils and there is a drop of barely 1/10 of a volt or so. The coils are pretty much getting full battery voltage of 12.6+.

d) even with trying three sets of carbs including the ones off my GS that run right, it doesn't seem that gas is getting to the cylinders as the plugs remain dry even after cranking for 2 or 3 minutes. That I can't understand. Even with just choke on they should be wet. Also putting gas or ether directly into the cylinders makes zero difference.

I'm on my way out to pick up a new comprssion guage so we'll soon see what we're dealing with (I'm including all you guys in the collective we).

Stay tuned.

Cheers,
Spyug

[steve murdoch]

Being somewhat of an expert on silly little things holding up projects could it be something as minor as a sidestand safety switch, clutch lever safety switch or kill switch malfunction.
Another one of those embarrassing moments when i killed a battery not noticing the slightly askew kill switch.
Keep at it, Spyug.

[Nessism]

I agree that a compression check is in order now. I thought you replaced the rings and lapped the valves, but after reading this thread it seems you didn't. Hope you don't have to pull the engine back down again.

[old_chopper]

If the compression check is acceptable try squirting a little too much gas in the carbs. Worst case scenario you flood it for a while. Did you try choking the carbs with your hand over the intake? These don't really have a choke but rather an enrichening circuit. I put a Mikuni on an old 45" HD and it was hard to start without the choke. I would lean it over to flood it a little bit when it was cold and it would fire right up.

[spyug]

Thanks for the suggestion Steve.

No sidestand switch on this puppy and the clutch switch was defective so I took it out of the loop and joined the connections at the harness. I voltage tested all the way down from the handlebar control to the solenoid on the yellow/green line and it was fine. I also had that switch apart numerous times for cleaning and testing and the kill switch operates as advertised.

Ed, Once I freed up the pistons I merely "deglazed" the cylinders with a light honing and bolted it all back together. I also re-used the head gasket that came off it. I had my pro mechanic look at it and he passed it as worth a try. Remember, I was trying to confirm that this engine ran before putting any more dollars into the project. In hindsight that may have been a bad move as its very possible that gasket is giving me a compression issues. If that turns out to be the case you guys can all give me the "I told you so" and it will be a lesson learned.

Even if that is the case, I still can't understand how gas doesn't seem to get to the cylinders or why a straight shot of gas or ether doesn't ellicit at least a "fart" out of it.

Oldchopper, I've had the carbs swimming in gas and ****ing all over the place and still nada, as I keep saying I can't understand how I can't light off at least some of it. In all my years, I've never not been able to get some sign of life out of an engine.

I'm starting to feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone or that movie Groundhog Day where I'm doomed to go through the same motions every day.

Stay tuned for more adventures.

Cheers,
Spyug

Cheers,
Spyug