Yet Another Set-Back

[Anonymous]

I've written before about an intermittent electrical/starter motor/"clack" problem that has given me fits all summer. I would do one thing, seem to fix it, and then it would happen again and the thing I did to fix it wouldn't work.

Joe Nardy, whom I met on this site, was kind enough to help. We discovered I had both an electrical problem (that he fixed) AND I needed a new starter.

Three weeks ago, I ordered the starter from ebay, a used one, installed it, and it worked. I must have started it 4 dozen times in the week that I installed it.

Then, Chicago weather being what it is, the bike sat for 2 weeks without a start attempt.

Yesterday, I went to start my bike and "click" - just like I time-warped to earlier this summer. So, I bumped it without problem and rode anyway.

Figuring perhaps I abused my battery during this summer of discontent (I must have had it on a charger about 14 times this year), I decided to place it on the battery charger.

I installed the battery today, and the bike SLOWLY cranked, but wouldn't start then - "click". Not too worried, figured the battery wouldn't hold a charge.

I placed the battery charger to "start" and tried to jump it. Nothing doing. Just "click". I tried to hot-wire the bike bypassing the electrical and nothing again.

I figure perhaps a bad starter clutch was the culprit all along. If it is intermittent, it may have fried out my first starter motor by "locking" the gear when the starter was trying to spin, breaking it, and contributed to my electrical problems.

I took out my impact driver and tried to remove the case. Of course, the phillips head screws/bolts were weak and I gave up - the metal was too weak for my skills and a $12.99 impact driver. I didn't strip the heads, but I would have if I continued.

Two questions;

(1) Has anybody replaced these horrible bolts/screws with proper hex bolts, and where do I get them?

(2) When/if I can remove the cover, what can I expect to find underneath? Does my theory hold water? Anyone hear of starter clutch trouble opening a similar pandoras box? How hard is it to work on the starter clutch?

(3) Wishful thinking, but is there still a possibility it is simply my battery and I am over-reacting?

Thanks for any help or insight.

ANDY

[Anonymous]

The first thing I would do is get the battery load tested. This should be free and it will give you peace of mind.

I've had the same problem with my starter all summer too. In my case I had a worn down Positive brush which was arcing and in turn blackening the commutator bars on the armature. Sometimes I could get the starter to work by putting the bike in gear and turning the motor over a bit. Then I'd try be able to use the starter successfully. Eventually this would stop working for me and I would have to pull the starter and use super super DUPER fine sand paper to resurface the commutator. This will work a couple of times but you run the risk of ruining the armature in the starter so it is best to change the brush if you've run into this problem. Oh yeah, my symptoms were either a click or a slow turning starter.

If by chance you didn't open your starter to measure the brushes when you bought it I would check into this. Then, before installing the starter again I would use booster cables and a battery to test it. Just be sure to hold it down with your foot.

Steve

[Don Lobacz]

If your starter clutch goes bad you will have the opposite result: the starter will spin very quickly without turning over the motor.

You may have hydraulic lock. Remove the spark plugs, PUT ON SAFETY GLASSES, keep your head back and try turning it over. This will also give you an idea of the cranking power.

The battery may be bad. Check the DC volts and then load test it if possible. If you can borrow a good battery that would be best.

Motor grounds need to be checked.

If you are getting good voltage to your starter then it would appear that it is bad.

[Anonymous]

Do the no load test.

If your battery keeps loosing charge get it good and charged and do the no load test. I'm sure you know what happens with a bad starter having gone through the troubles of it already. But the charging system needs to be tested.

I see allen head bolt kits on E-bay all the time. Also hex head kits turn up once in a while.

[Anonymous]

Yet Another SetBack Update

Well, here's an update:

I no-load tested the new "old" starter from ebay that I purchased last month and had installed in my cycle. I guess I should not be surprised - the starter had no guarantees and it is 23 years old, but it seems "bad".

I put the starter on a car battery and nothing happened for six seconds or so. I guess I was frustrated and I kicked the starter - then it turned quickly - like it is supposed to - but, only after I stomped it good.

I then hooked it to my cycle battery - again, it did not turn until I dropped it lightly from about 4 inches onto the cement - then it fired up.

Two things may be wrong.

1. I replaced a "bad" starter with another bad starter.
2. My bike takes perfectly good starters and eats them for lunch - it broke my original starter, then damaged my new "old" starter that I had installed.

I think I probably have bad luck and it is #1 - if I had replaced the old starter with a pristine starter I would guess #2, but I purchased a used no-load tester.

The only thing that makes me doubt this new theory is that for 1 week, the bike fired right up after I replaced the starter. Can moisture (it has rained about 10 out of the last 14 days) make the starter more tempermental? My bike is garaged.

So, any advice with this new information would be appreciated. Is this a symptom of bad brushes?

ANDY

[Hoomgar]

I know this isn't the exact answer or advice maybe you are looking for but it just happened to me last week so I thought I would share it with you since it could be exactally what happened to you.

My car was just up and shutting off. Then it would fire and run, shut off, run, shut off... on and on. And not consistent.

My mechanic was convinced the fuel pump was bad and replaced it with a new one. This was a fairly labor intensive repair because the fuel pump is in the tank.

Guess what? Still did it. We spent the next two weeks trouble shooting everything else under the sun and spent countless dollars on parts and labor only to finally find out that the new pump we put in had the same problem my old one did. The brand new replacement pump was bad!

We got one from the dealer this time paying 70 dollars more for it but knew it was a factory part. It fixed my car. He treated me right and adjusted the bill so that I didn't get ripped off but my point is that if I got a new part that was bad in the same way as the old part then it is very possible for the same thing to have happened to you with a used part.

Hope that brings some level of comfort.

[Anonymous]

Don't drop or beat on your GS starter to get it to work. The magnets are glued to the inside of the case, and are fairly easy to bust loose if you beat on them. Try a local automotive starter & alternator rebuild shop, all of them won't help, but many of them will.

[Joe Nardy]

In my case I had a worn down Positive brush which was arcing and in turn blackening the commutator bars on the armature. Eventually this would stop working for me and I would have to pull the starter and use super super DUPER fine sand paper to resurface the commutator. This will work a couple of times but you run the risk of ruining the armature in the starter so it is best to change the brush if you've run into this problem. Oh yeah, my symptoms were either a click or a slow turning starter.

Andy,

Hopefully this will be the case with your starter. Check your e-mail for a link to a starter place. You can get the brushes or a brush plate kit for pretty cheap.

Joe

[Anonymous]

What is happening with the no load test.

What is going on when you test the system.

Is the voltage running away? 15v 16v or higher? If so the stator is alive but the R/R is gone. If it drops off the stator is bad and draining the system. the contacts should also be clean. Not just the R/R + stator contacts. The solonoid, engine ground, and any other contact you can find needs to be clean and lubed.

[Anonymous]

Here is a yet another starter story and opinion/advice. The starter on my 1981 GS 650G became intermitent summer before last . I could hear the relay click but got no turn over of the motor..so I knew I had voltage going as far as to the relay and verified it with a meter.I finally determined it was the starter because when I would push the starter button, and hear the click I found by my meter that I had voltage going clear up to the post on the startermotor . (I put negative lead of meter on ground, or outside case of starter , and positive lead on voltage post and you should have 12 volts when you push in the starter button and hear the relay click. If not make sure there is continuity between the post and the relay connection.. ) When I removed my starter and took it apart the brushes were worn down so far that they finally could not make contact. Tapping the starter had jogged them enough to make contact until they finally got too worn to make contact at all.

I got a new set of brushes from my dealer and it works great now. My bike had about 25000 mi on it, but I did lots of cranking with that old starter over the last twenty some years.esp in the spring for the first startup after the bike setting all winter.

Having been in the tv repair business for a number of years I found that an intermittant problem is often caused by loose connection, bad contacts, or switches . If I read and understood your posts correctly it (the replacement starter) worked intermittantly when you dropped it or whacked it. If it were me I would open it up and take a look at the brushes as well as the place where the voltage post comes through on the inside. You might want to take a picture or make a drawing of the way that thing goes together . I sometimes take a short video, or a digital pic and store video on my vcr or pic in my computer for ref later if I need it.

good luck
John