82 GS650E electric testing q's stator, coil. Earlfor rules.

[bustinjustin2k]

I kinda started this in another topic but it was sugested I start another topic, here it is, and here is my new prob.. to replace the old one :/

Ok, 82 GS650E, Bought it like 3 or 4 months ago, rode it once, stored it, tried to start it a few days ago and it wouldnt run, repaired the carbs, eventually got it to start. It tended to start once I let go of the starter button which to my understanding is a indication of a bad ignition coil. It dosent like to start once it has been started once. Sometimes I get spark sometimes I dont.

I removed the ignition coils and took them to a suzuki shop which proceeded to molest me and my wallet all they could. They tested my ignition coils and said "they read low, this one reads a 6 and this one reads a 5.somethin almost a 6, they should read 8" said I need to buy new ones, also said my "Stator" is most likely bad and wanted me to bring it in and he would test it for 60 bucks, to test the coils it was 35. I dont trust these guys as far as I can throw them though.

I think what I am trying to get to amist of all this whining is. How do I test the Stator, and Coils. What would you guys do?

I do have the clymer manual and a digital multimeter. I have very little experince with the multimeter, basicly no experince I totally dont undertstand how to use it. I had asked how to test the coils on here before and got some great replys as always. But before I tested it I called suzuki and they tould me all this crap like never test it if you dont have experince with multimeter, if you put the posts on the wrong spot you will totally kill everything and your multimeter and your bike will be just about worthless.

So take it away guys, Im all ears. I have every tool I would need I think so I'm ready to roll. Just when you get to telling me stuff with the multimeter tell it to me like im 4 years old. I even bought a multimeter manual and it makes 0 sence to me, heh...

Thanks as always. As I learn more I will help you guys fix other peoples problems with the information I have learned from you. It's the only way I can think of repaying the favor.

Justin

[earlfor]

Re: 82 GS650E electric testing q's stator, coil. Earlfor rul

Justin, changing the title to denote the problem on what is enough.
I just wanted to make the topic easier to find. It really isn't my topic. :-) :-)

Anyway, I assume the bike ran fine before you stored it. correct???

What do you mean by "repaired the carbs"? What did you do?
Has the bike been sitting for 4 months with the old gas in the tank and carbs?

A fully charged battery will read 12.7 volts.
If it reads anything over about 12.4, it should be OK If the battery is low, the starter will likely pull the battery down to too low a voltage for it to start. Set your multimeter to DC volts 20 scale. Black probe on the neg terminal of the battery and red probe on the positive battery terminal.
What is the battery voltage?

Earl

[bustinjustin2k]

Yes the bike ran before I parked it. I bought a new battery, I changed the gas, it did start in the beginning but it ran poorly baaad idle up and down up and down dead. Then wouldnt start half the time, if it did it was only once or twice, once it warmed up it wouldnt start, battery would die fast. I took the carbs out and cleaned them, looked for anything out of the norm, looked pretty good, adjusted the floats to what the manual said, a float height of 21-23 mm so I stuck it at 22 which I really had to bend the tang to set it at that height it was probably set at like 18 or 19 mm before. I had removed the carb like 3 times before just looking didnt really do anything but clean them, I noticed the diaphrams had a sticky vasoline like substance on them and the second time I removed them there was no more. What I did next sounds stupid but it did seem to help.. I put A&D ointment on the diaphram, its alot like vasoline. Installed the carbs and she started right up the idle was much better, tried to tune it with my Carbtune II it would still eventually just die at idle though. hesitation in power till i got to 2000 rpm, i think thats due to the way I tuned it.. So anyway, thats what I did to the carbs.

I did what you said to do, the battery read 12.30 but I tried to start it a bit before I wrote this, it does need to be charged.

[bustinjustin2k]

ok I just fully charged the battery and tested the battery again the Multimeter gave me a volt reading of 13.06

thx for telling me how to use it and what to set it on.

[earlfor]

Ok J, you again said you cleaned the carbs. What exactly does that mean? Did you squirt a spray can of carb cleaner into them?, did you take them completely apart (all jets and "O" rings) and soak them in a tub for 24 hours, or did you take a tissue and wipe the dust off them? :-) Tell me precisely, step by step what you did.

On your coils: You say you have intermittent spark. I want you to check the coils. Each coil has a primary side and a secondary side. This check is the primary side. On the end of each coil, you will see two wires. One will be orange/white and that is the positive (+) power supply to the coil.
12 volts is fed to it from the ignition switch, then through the kill switch, and then arrives at the coil in the orange/white wire. Each coil will have a negative terminal on the end too. One coil will have (usually) a black wire and the other coil will have a white wire. The black and white wires go to the electronic ignition sensor/pickups on the right end of the crankshaft.

Multimeter test: disconnect the orange/white wire on each coil. Disconnect both coils orange/whites at the same time. Set the multimeter to DC volts 20 scale. Turn the ignition on. Do not start or turn over engine, just turn ignition on. Place black lead of multimeter on engine fin and hold red lead of meter to orange/white wire. Do this for both coils.
The voltage in the leads should be the same. Turn off the ignition switch. It should also be close to the voltage in the battery when checking batery voltage at the battery terminals. What is your voltage on the orange/white wires? What is your battery voltage at this time?

Now unclip the black and white wires from you coils. Set your meter to 200 ohms. (its the scale with the little horseshoe looking symbol) Leave the ignition off. The orange/white leads to the coils will also be disconnected. Place the black probe from the meter on one of the tabs/connectors on the end of the coil, Place the red lead on the other. (it does not matter which lead goes to which tab) Any reading between 2 and 5 ohms is within normal service limits. You will probably get a reading close to 3 ohms.
Let me know what you get on each coil. (this is the coil primary value)

If both coils are within the normal 2 to 5 ohm range, then we continue to the secondary side.

Each coil fires a pair of cylinders. Usually the left coil will fire cylinders 1 and 4 and the right coils will fire cylinders 2 and 3.

Set your meter to 200K on the ohm scale (the little horseshoe again :-) )
Ignition still off and you can leave the previous wires on the ends of the coils still disconnected. Pull the spark plug wires/leads off of cylinders 1 and 4. Insert the black probe of the meter inside the spark plug cap of cylinder 1 to touch the round metal ring that normally snaps onto the spark plug top. Insert the red probe inside the lead/cap for cylinder 4.
It does not matter which probe goes to 1 and which probe goes to 4.
You should get a reading between 30K to 50K ohms.

Do the same thing with the 2 and 3 leads. Let me know what you get for a reading on both secondaries.

Reconnect the orange/white coils leads and the black and white leads.

We cannot check your regulator/rectifier or stator unless the engine is running. That will have to come later.

Dont try to be brief. :-) Use as many words as you need to tell me exactly what you have done or anything you find puzzling. :-) The more you tell me, the better off we are. :-)

Earl

ok I just fully charged the battery and tested the battery again the Multimeter gave me a volt reading of 13.06

thx for telling me how to use it and what to set it on.

[bustinjustin2k]

bummer dude, I just wrote out this entire email with every lil detail I could think off and all the sudden the page closed and I lost it all heh :?

One more time...how I "cleaned the carbs".. by Justin lelbach..

I removed the carbs from the bike, removed the float bowls, diaphragm cover and removed the diaphragm and throttle slide, inspected the diaphragm for damage noticed no rips and such. Removed the main and needle jet. Sprayed down the jets with carb cleaner, sprayed around the trottle valve and surrounding area with carb cleaner. Removed the gaskets from the float bowls sprayed the bowls with carb cleaner, sprayed the float area too I think, set the float height, made sure the lil spring the float tab hits depresses. ummmm I think thats about it. I followed the Clymer manual on cleaning and inspection of the carbs. Blew into every hole I could find with a hose and my own breath to make sure it actually came out where it was supposed to. The carbs looked good, no gunky stuff, rust etc. I did everything it said I think EXCEPT put it in a dunk tank cause I read posts on here that it can harm the gaskets.

The end.. I think?


Now onto the results of the coil testing information you so kindly offered me.


Ignition off, tested battery power, DV voltage reading of 12.70.
Ignition on position, Kill switch Run position, battery reading of 12.06

Primary Coil test results...

Ignition on, kill switch Run position, I coudlnt get a reading when kill switch was on off.

Right side coil read 10.83 DC.
Left side (side kick stand and shifter is on) coil reading of 10.83 as well.

Primary coil value test... possibly bad news. Set the multimeter to ohms position lil headphone things, set it to 200. tested coils as you said and I got random numbers for a split second then both coils read 0.00, held the leads on the lil tabs/connecters for a while and it remained 0.00

Since both coils did not read the normal 2 to 5 ohm range I did not continue to the secondary side.

back to you good sir.

[earlfor]

OK J.

Your carb cleaning sounds like you were pretty thorough. I dont see anything unusual. Should be fine.


**************There could be a problem here***********
Now onto the results of the coil testing information you so kindly offered me.
Ignition off, tested battery power, DV voltage reading of 12.70.
Ignition on position, Kill switch Run position, battery reading of 12.06
(((((( that is a pretty big voltage drop. I assume you have your headlight turned on and on high beam. I just checked both my bikes to confirm the difference between yours and mine. Same conditions, I show a drop of .20 volts on one bike and .25 volts on the other. Your voltage drop is .64 Try cleaning wiring connectors and make sure everything fits tightly together. Dont forget to clean the contacts in your fuse box too.
)))))))))))))))))





Primary Coil test results...

Ignition on, kill switch Run position, I coudlnt get a reading when kill switch was on off.
((((((((((((that is normal))))))))))))





Right side coil read 10.83 DC.
Left side (side kick stand and shifter is on) coil reading of 10.83 as well.
(((((((((((a bit on the low voltage side. You should have about 12 volts there if your battery shows 12.7 Try cleaning contacts up a bit and checking wires for brittleness or melted insulation. You might also want to spray some electrical contact cleaner into your ignition switch. I'm not sure if it will do any good, but it cant hurt. I would also separate the switch housing halves on the right handlebar (kill switch) and spray contact cleaner in there and check for corrosion too.)))))))))))))))





Primary coil value test... possibly bad news. Set the multimeter to ohms position lil headphone things, set it to 200. tested coils as you said and I got random numbers for a split second then both coils read 0.00, held the leads on the lil tabs/connecters for a while and it remained 0.00

((((((((((((( this is strange. Even if a coil is completely dead, its unlikely that the other would be exactly dead also. If they were, the bike would not run at all no matter what you did. Lets do this again. Disconnect both wire leads from the coils. You should be diconnecting an orange/white wire and a black wire on one coil. On the other you will disconnect an orange/white wire and a white wire. Set the multimeter to
the 200 scale (not 200K) on the Ohms side (should be located at about 5 oclock on the face of your meter)
Hold the red probe tim on the tab the orange/white wire was connected to. Hold the black probe tip to the tab that a black or white wire was connected to. Do the left coil and then do the right coil.
(you cannot put the red probe on the left coil and the black probe on the right coil......that will not work.........not trying to say you would...:-) but just covering my bases.. :-) You should get some kind of reading. I have seen some close to zero, but never exactly 0.00
Lemme know what you get this time.)))))))))))))))))

Since both coils did not read the normal 2 to 5 ohm range I did not continue to the secondary side.



If you do end up needing coils, dont even think of going to that dealer. :-)

Earl

[bustinjustin2k]

I think I may have the wrong kind of battery, I went back to walmart where I got my battery from and I compaired the one the service dude gave me which is the one I have, to the one I that I looked up in the book. When I found the one in the book the number was off by like a letter or 2 compaired to mine. I could see how he could give me the wrong battery. The one I have seems funky, the + and - are on the wrong sides it seems. I had to re-route the positive and negitive battery wire for them to reach the + and - terminals on the battery. The battery is for bikes honda, suzuki, yamaha etc but the max cc's they go up to on the box is 500 and mine is a 650 suzuki. I tould the service dude he gave me the wrong battery. He said I could not return it since I allready filled it. And that it should work anyway.. :?

Would having a smaller battery cause the problems I am experincing?

I hope what I said makes sence...

Also I removed my stator before I read your email, would that cause the drop in the battery voltage? I would think that the stator only is needed to start the bike, starter etc.

My headlight is not turned on high beam, I cleaned the contact wires when I first installed the battery, they didnt need it but I did it anyway.

the contacts on my coil look good, everything on the bike LOOKS good, no rust, damage, brittle wires, melted anything. All appears good.

It is too dark right now for me to see any corrosion around the kill switch, ill check that tomorrow.

I do not exactly have a 200k option on my ohms, its like.. everything heh, its a cheep digital multimeter from harbor freight it was like 7 bucks. My 200 setting on my multimeter looks like this 200VK"ohms sign"mA(then a line-- with ... underneith it"

Cool, I found it on the net, here is my multimeter http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=33499

I was able to get a read out of both the coil tabs when I put the multi meter on ohms and on the audible test. The symbol looks like ->+ .))) ... heh, sorry thats the best my simple mind can explain how it looks..

Anyway, with that setting I got a read of 4 ohms on BOTH of the coils.

Having POSSIBLY passed the Primary coil test heh.. I proceeded onto the Secondary side.

Did what you said, set it on ohms, 200, spark plug wires 1 and 4 read 33 ohms and 2 and 3 read 33 as well.

Justin

[earlfor]

[quote="bustinjustin2k"]
Would having a smaller battery cause the problems I am experincing?
(((((((((((((My 750 requires a 12 amp battery, I am guessing that your bike would also require a 12 amp battery. If you battery is at least 10 amp, you probably are OK)))))))))))




Also I removed my stator before I read your email, would that cause the drop in the battery voltage? I would think that the stator only is needed to start the bike, starter etc.
((((((((YOU WHATTT!!!!!!! The stator is the charging system of the bike. You wouldnt remove the alternator from your car and expect to drive it around would you? Of course the battery voltage will continue to drop.
Youre using electricity and not replacing it, The bike runs completely on DC (battery) voltage. BUT, the stator produces AC voltage and this is rectified to DC to charge the battery. Having a stator is a must. It is NOT optional.))))))))))))))))





I do not exactly have a 200k option on my ohms, its like.. everything heh, its a cheep digital multimeter from harbor freight it was like 7 bucks. My 200 setting on my multimeter looks like this 200VK"ohms sign"mA(then a line-- with ... underneith it"

Cool, I found it on the net, here is my multimeter http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=33499

I was able to get a read out of both the coil tabs when I put the multi meter on ohms and on the audible test. The symbol looks like ->+ .))) ... heh, sorry thats the best my simple mind can explain how it looks..

Anyway, with that setting I got a read of 4 ohms on BOTH of the coils.

Having POSSIBLY passed the Primary coil test heh.. I proceeded onto the Secondary side.

Did what you said, set it on ohms, 200, spark plug wires 1 and 4 read 33 ohms and 2 and 3 read 33 as well.

((((((((((((There is nothing wrong with your coils!! )))))))))




So you have a Haynes, Clymer or service book for the bike. Specifically, do you have a wiring diagram?

Earl

[bustinjustin2k]

""Also I removed my stator before I read your email, would that cause the drop in the battery voltage? I would think that the stator only is needed to start the bike, starter etc. ""
((((((((YOU WHATTT!!!!!!!

LOL woops hahaha.

I never tried to start the bike with the stator out. Now that I know how to test the battery charge thx to you I will see if the battery continues to drop in power when I reinstall the stator. Before I removed the stator, ever since I bought the new battery, the bike didnt seem to recharge.Or hold the charge. I thought maybe there was a draw somewhere but I sure couldnt find it. But yeah, now that I know how to test the battery, I'll see..

Just to confirm, I didnt remove the stator then expect to see a spark, like I said I never tried to start the bike. Thinking back on it, it was stupid, I think I just had some time on my hands, didnt even know what a stator looked like and wanted to see one. I was gonna go to a motorcycle salvage yard and maybe try one there. Just wanted to know what I was looking for. But since it is apparently possible to test the stator if I get this to start again, I'll give that a shot first.

((((((((((((There is nothing wrong with your coils!! )))))))))

sweet

(((((((((((So you have a Haynes, Clymer or service book for the bike. Specifically, do you have a wiring diagram? )))))))))))))

Yes I do, 81-83 suzuki gs650 Clymer service book. And yes it does have a wiring diagram.

[bustinjustin2k]

I have changed the oil and reinstalled the stator once again, it was only disconnected for a day, could you tell me how to do a stator continuity test? Some dude tould me in a hurry and it just blew right over my head. He said the bike dosent even need to start to do the continuity test.

I believe he said if its gets in the range of 60 to 80 somethin, I tried it via trial and error and only proved to myself I really have no buisness attempting to fix anything myself :P

[earlfor]

We can get to checking that stator and regulator/rectifier later. As I said, the bike runs on DC current. That means it runs off of the battery. Without a stator,regulator/rectifier (charging system) running the bike will drain the battery, so you will need to keep putting it on the charger to keep the battery voltage above 12.4 always.

Now, your problem is the plugs fire haphazardly and the bike will not start.
We know the coils are ok. But, as you said, you have 12.7 volts in the battery and when you turn on the ignition switch, only about 10 volts arrives as your coil orange/white positive lead wire. For this to happen there is only one possibility and that is resistance in your wiring harness or switches. You need to trace your ignition system wiring and check the voltage at each connection to find out where the voltage drop is. I can tell you the basic route the wiring takes and what the colors would be for an 82 750, but I do not have 650 diagram. I think they would be the same, but I dont know that for a fact.

On your fuse block there is a 10 amp fuse marked ignition. The wire coming off that fuse is orange/white. Check battery voltage at the terminals. Remember that value. Check voltage on the output side of the fuse. Should be the same. The orange/white wire runs to your kill switch.
two wires come from your kill switch and run into the headlight shell. One of them will be orange/white and will be plugged into the orange/white wire that is coming from your fuse block. Current is coming from the fuse block, connecting to the kill switch lead in the headlight shell, running through the kill switch and comes out the other side to the kill switch as another orange/white and plugs into a 6 wire bar connector. the opposing orange/white exiting the bar connector then continues on to your coil. that is the orange/white wire you have been checking on the coil. There is a "T" in the orange/white wire before it reaches the coil. This "T" lead runs to provide power to your ignitor box (usually located under one of the side covers). It also is orange/white. At each point I have mentioned, you need to take a voltage reading and compare it to the battery voltage you started out with in the wiring harness. Somewhere, you are losing voltage and you need to fix that problem before we can move on. Once we have the correct voltage going to everything, then we can check various parts to see if they are working properly, but without the correct voltage, things dont work correctly even if there is nothing wrong with them.
Set your meter to DC volts 20 scale for all checks.

It will probably be easier if you take my directions and find everything on your diagram. There may be some wiring color differences.

There is also a large black engine ground wire you can check. It should be bolted to the top, right rear or the transmission. Make sure it is clean and tight.

More wiring checks to follow :-), but for now this should keep you occupied. heh heh

we will find it.

Let me know what you find or if you have a question.

Earl

[bustinjustin2k]

Sorry it took so long to get done Earl, it has done nothing but rain outside and every time I go out to work on my bike something else on the bike distracts me, when I took off my headlight to get to the orange/white wires the 6 bar connector you spoke of was melted, I pulled it apart with ALOT of strength and ended up pullin everything else out took for ever to figgure what exactly went where and I tried to get another 6 bar connector but I would have to buy the entire wiring harness. So I cut the wires out tossed the melted connector and joined the wires with buttjoiners (hehe funny word) so thats taken care of.

Now on to the test results...

I did this test many different times, the power of the battery drops so quickly its hard to get an accurate reading. The following was compleated within oh.. 3 to 5 min... This test was performed after the 6 bar connector was "repaired" I tested the whole thing before I repaired it too and didnt notice a big difference.

bike off battery voltage____12.93
Bike and run on batt volt___11.92
O/W ignition fuse output ___10.62
Main fuse red wire out.. just cause___11.52
O/W to kill or from kill switch not sure10.29 |there were 2 O/W wires|
O/W to kill or from kill switch not sure10.14 |going to other O/W wires|
O/W Left Coil Primary Test_________10.80
O/W Right Coil Primary Test________9.99
O/W Ignitor _____________________9.88

after the 3 or 5 min test I tested the battery again
Battery On, Run switch On ___ 11.50
Battery OFF run OFF_________12.20

I never tried to start it or anything, just turned it to on position.
This is with the stator in and oil change. I took apart the kill switch as you reccamended and looked inside of it, it looked perfect. The only wires that had any damage to them what so ever was the one 6 bar connector located behind the headlight.

All tests were done with multimeter set on DC volts and 20 scale.
I traced my wires in my Clymer book with the diagram you gave me and it was spot on.

Oh, and that ground you spoke of looked just fine.

NEXT

Justin

[bustinjustin2k]

now Im not so sure I have intermittent spark, I think its highly possible that by the time I checked the first spark plug the battery was well charged but after pressing the startor button like.. three times the battery prolly got low and caused a week spark by the time I got to spark plug Number 4.

When I fully charge the battery, remove a plug, keep it in the spark plug wire and hold it near a bolt or somethin the spark is always good.

I then charge the battery... wait.. remove another spark plug, check it, good spark. The plugs are NGK's and are intended for use with my bike, the gap of all the spark plugs are set to the correct specks. I dont know if I have the correct fuel/air mixture goin on in the carb though. I have not messed with the air mixture screw at all as it is still sealed by the body of the carb and as I said a few days back the float is set to 22 mm.

Even still if I am getting good spark while the battery is fully charged, good compression, and gas IS getting to the plugs and carbs, why would it not start right up? I cant keep trying to start it 4, 5 times the battery is then to week to cause a slightly visable spark and then I have to wait for ever to charge the battery.

I'm still lookin forward to testing whatever it is you want me to test next Earl, I just thought I would ask that. Dont mean to change the subject.

Justin

[earlfor]

OK Justin, At the beginning, you said bike off, battery terminal voltage 12.93
After 3-5 mins, with run switch on 11.5 and then everything off 12.2.
I want you to LOOK IN YOUR CLYMER BOOK for the CORRECT BATTERY for your bike. I think it probably will be a 12 amp hour battery.
A battery at 12.8 volts is 100% charged. A battery at 12.2 volts is 25% charged. In 5 minutes of testing, your battery has gone from 100% to 25% charge. If this is true, then if you have a good 12 amp battery in the bike, you have used 9 amps in 5 minutes. That really is not possible.
If you had a short in the wiring, you would have fire and smoke with that kind of electrical flow. :-) I think your battery is ready for the scrap pile.
It may be new, but charging it with too high a rate will destroy it.
The multi tester readings arent consistent enough to determine a problem area. To find the problem, we need a stable voltage supply. What charge rate have you been using on your charger? Have you been keeping an eye on the water level in the battery? Lemme know.

For test purposes, we could also connect a car battery with jumpers connected to the leads in the bike that normally attach to the bike's battery. If you have a car battery you can use, it must be a lone battery.
It cannot be connected to any charging system or electrical system other than the bike's. Let me know.

Its a sure thing the bike isnt going to run worth diddly (if at all) with 9 volts going to the ignition system. :-)

Earl




[quote="bustinjustin2k"]

after the 3 or 5 min test I tested the battery again
Battery On, Run switch On ___ 11.50
Battery OFF run OFF_________12.20