Tubeless Tires, Unmarked Alloy Wheels and Tire Sealers

[earlfor]

Re: Tubeless Tires, Unmarked Alloy Wheels and Tire Sealers

You could take the shop your old wheel with tire moounted and tell them you want the new tire mounted, but you do not want the tire inflated or the bead seated. (take the valve stem out before you bring them the old tire)
That would satisfy their insurance requirements. When you get home with it, push the sidewall down, remove the tube and insert your valve stem. Use your own compressor, or go to a gas station to inflate it. :-) :-)

I also have been considering a modification to allow running of tubeless tires on spoked rims. :-) Havent got around to it yet though.

Earl


[quote="dpep"]

It is still a problem for those of us who don't change our own tires. I haven't found anybody in a shop willing to mount tubeless on a wheel that doesn't say it.

[Billy Ricks]

The threaded metal valve stems are available at Pep Boys and other auto parts stores for about 5 bucks a pop. They are safer than rubber stems for high speed riding. Centrifugal force can bend and break rubber stems.

[focus frenzy]

Re: Tubeless Tires, Unmarked Alloy Wheels and Tire Sealers

I inflated the tires to 100 psi to be certain I had a good seat on the tire bead to rim.

Earl

dear god!!! please don't do that again!! you should never exceed the tire/wheel manufacturers maximum air pressure located on the side wall of the tire.
to do so is to invite a catastrophic failure leading to at least a ruined tire or even death.
I have seen it happen, it is not pretty, inflating a tire rated for 40psi max to 100psi is very dangerous, there could be a microscopic crack in the rim that would not hold up to the extreme pressure and fail.
it also stresses the belts in the tires leading to premature belt failure down the road.
I care and don't want to see you hurt or killed Earl.

[focus frenzy]

in the early days of alloy motorcycle wheels the technology was not perfected enough and they had higher than accepted rates of wheels that had problems leaking air, this is why Honda used the comstar wheels made from a stamped steer rim and stamped spokes, they did not have trust in the cast wheels at the time.
a majority of the wheels used by suzuki did not leak, sufficiently to be a problem, but some did.
I do not have tubes in my wheels on my 80 G and they holds air better than my 2001 cars wheels!
you just have to try them with out tubes and keep a close eye on the tires pressure to see if they will hold, if they loose a couple pounds a day, you will need to seal them or run tubes.

a interesting bit of info, Honda has a problem with the V6's in the early Acura's leaking oil through the cast aluminum blocks!!! they cured the problem by cleaning the blocks and aplying a sealing coat to them.

[Pete Logan]

Thanks very much to everyone who has contributed so much useful information.

That's cleared things up nicely. I'm going to go with the rim preparation Earl recommended, tubeless tires, and the UltraSeal tire sealer. I think that is going to be the most solid combination.

Just as a final note of possible amusement, I checked everything again. The rims definitely show no markings whatsoever that would indicate they are rated for tubeless (not that that is going to put me off ), and the valve stem is metal, definitely not the rubber tubeless type.

However, now that I know that there is a tubeless valve in metal, and combining that with the fact that the tires are both tubeless marked, and the fact that the rear (at least) loses a couple of pounds a week, I'm wondering whether the previous owner has not already done the move 8O 8O

Fortunately, he lives next door, so I can go and ask him, without having to take a tire off to find the answer - Phew !!!!

And so to bed

Thanks again.

Pete

[jpaul]

I haven't had tubes on my 82 GS1100 since I wore out the first set of tires. My understanding on why Suzuki recommended tube type tires for the alloy wheels was mainly due to the fact that tubeless tires were relatively new when these bikes were made. Recommending against tubeless tires was basically a legal CYA.

[Anonymous]

In 1982, Suzuki went for a different design on their wheels, at least for the shafties, and perhaps for some of the chainies as well. So, if you have a 1982, 83, or 84 shaftie, and probably other GS's, the stock wheels are marked "tubeless", both front and rear.

Nick

[earlfor]

Re: Tubeless Tires, Unmarked Alloy Wheels and Tire Sealers

Normally, I would not do such a thing. However, I felt (and still do) that it was necessary. I have a locking tire inflator on my compressor line. I can lock the line to the valve stem and place the tire outside the shop, a 100 feet away. The line pressure is controlled from the shop. I wasnt standing over the tire when I did the test. Not having any test data from anyone that had made the changes I did, I had to know the tire would not come off the rim in an extreme circumstance such as the bike going airborne and landing hard. A 3 or 4 foot jump could cause the tire pressure to momentarily equal or exceed my test pressure. If the tire comes off, someone else pays for my mistake. The worst that could have happened would have been the tire blowing off the rim, a hole in the exterior wall of my shop and a ruined rim. That is much better than crashing a customer. :-) I sleep well knowing the work I did is sound
I also would not post the modification if there was any doubt the tire would stay safely attached. The last thing I need is anyone here crashing because I didnt do my homework.

Earl

P.S. Uhhh, no I will not be doing anymore rim testing. :-)

[quote="focus frenzy"]
please don't do that again!! you should never exceed the tire/wheel manufacturers maximum air pressure located on the side wall of the tire.
to do so is to invite a catastrophic failure leading to at least a ruined tire or even death.

[Anonymous]

Someone posted here, apprx. 6 months ago, that he had some kind of problem using a tubeless on a wheel not marked tubeless, but now I can not find his post. I've always ran tubeless tires on mag rims & never had a problem. Have never seen any difference, if they were stamped tubeless or not. Never used any kind of sealer.

[saaz]

I run spoked rims, so unless I change to a BMW type system, I have not worried about this at all

I have not had a puncture in a bike tyre since about 1979.

[Anonymous]

correct rims should be marked with a "WM-#" designation.

Doh! I must have been on something good yesterday when I wrote this...

The correct designation for tubelss tires is "MT". The WM-# was used to designate rim widths previous to using actual width measurements...

I also heard yesterday that the difference between older tube-type rims and tubeless is that the tubeless ones have a lip of some sort inside the bead seat area to prevent the bead coming loose in the event of low tire pressures. Since Earl said there was no difference in the rim profiles, it is possible that Suzuki had adopted the newer profile even though the casting would not necessarily hold air. There was a lot of uncertaintity while tires were changing over to the tubeless standards we have now.

As always, YMMV and be careful with the critical components like these.

Mark

[Anonymous]

I went ahead and coated the wheels on my 400 and 1100 back in September 2004. I just checked the pressures on my 1100 and the front is 32PSI and rear 25. I think the tire pressures back in October where 40 and 35 so the epoxy is working well. The tires are Dunlop K491s.

Steve

[Anonymous]

I went tubeless after reading all of the info last spring and have not had any sign problems at all. 1 -2 psi drop per month which is normal with the temperature and all.

[themess]

Rubber is porous to air. Two major factors in porosity are the kind of rubber and how it is 'filled'. Sone of the least porous types of rubber are butyl, chlorobutyl, and bromobutyl. Butyl is used for tubes. Tubeless tires have thin layers of either a chlorobutyl or bromobutyl 'innerliner' as the innermost layer. Both chlorobutyl and bromobutyl can chemically bond the the styrene-butadiene/natural rubber blends that are next, but butyl rubber cannot.

Innerliner must wrap around the bead, to prevent air from escaping between the bead and the rim. But innerliner is relatively fragile, so it is protected by another layer or two of tougher rubber. Some of these layers might have tire cord in them, which can bleed air very quickly if it is in the wrong place. The order in which these layers are placed is critical to air retention.

Tires that rely on inner tubes usually leak air faster than properly mounted tubeless tires on good rims. I once had steel valves installed on a my car rims with a new set of all weather tires. The size of the stems prevented my from putting an air chuck on them, although I could check the pressure. I decided to not go back for remounting until the pressure was below spec. I wore the tires out first, two years later.

Since the tire bead must match the rim almost perfectly, the profile matters. Here, my memory isn't sharp. I believe that the profile of car rims changed a bit when tubeless tires were adopted. Controlling the profile of both the bead and the rim certainly became very important. I vaguely recall something to the effect that Suzuki aluminum wheels had a tubeless profile from the beginning, even though for the first year or two they weren't marked as tubeless because the porosity issue hadn't been settled. It isn't critical if the bead and rim profiles don't match as well when tubes are used.

Tubes are not generally recommended when used with tubeless tires on tubeless wheels. Heat build-up can destroy tires. The extra layer of rubber in an innertube holds, heat, and the slight rubbing between the tube and the tire also add heat. Innerliner does an excellent job of holding air, a far better job than a tube in most circumstances. If I recall correctly, there are special tubes to be used inside tubeless tires.

If wheels are corroded or dented, or if beads are kinked, a tight seal is not likely. If a tire is mounted or dismounted poorly, the mating surface of the wheel can be scratched or otherwise damaged. Removing a tire usually kinks the bead slightly, unless it is done with great care. Rust on the mating surface can also result in relatively fast air leaks.

Tire manufacturers routinely pull samples for "wheel tests" run according to a DOT schedule. The tire is pressed against a steel wheel, about 8 or 10 feet in diameter, that runs off of an electric motor. After a warmup, the tires are run at desert temperatures with increasing speeds and loads until they blow up. Everything is in a steel cage but it is still frightening to be around when it explodes.

[robinjo]

Would powdercoating a set of wheels have the same affect as the epoxy that Earl applied? And would the inner edge of the rim that the tire touches need to be undone if the coating?