electrical questions

[Anonymous]

My bike has been sitting parked for 3 weeks now and I am ready to throw it in the river, and forget about it. Few weeks earlier it had a starting problem. Sometimes when you push the start button nothing would happen, other times it would fire up great. Now it never fires up.

I've been playing with electronics...

Here is what I got so far.

-The starter relay does not get 12V on its 3rd small wire terminal. When I jump the bike by conecting the 3rd terminal to the battery bike fires up.

- Folowing the line from the starter relay into "starter disconect switch" or the cluth leaver, I get nice continuity to the lever, and it closes the circuit nice.

-From there it goes to the Start button and engine kill. I've opened these up and they seem to work fine. But still no 12 volt all the way up here when I press the button.

-From the on switch there are 3 wires. One that goes through clutch lever switch to the starter relay, and two more. One goes to the ignitor and the other one goes to the fuse.

-I have checked every wire and rewired some connections, and the continuity seems to be good everywhere.

Here are my questions.

1. How does the 12V get to the starter button? Should the wire comming from the ignitor provide those 12 V?

2. What does the ignitor do? (This comes from the British manuel so I am not sure if American word is the same)

3. like I said earlier, when I jump the starter relay switch to the battery the bike starts cranking. The tank was off so I am not sure if it would run as well. I am thinking about making a wire that goes from the starter relay (the 3rd small conection), through the switch and straight to the battery. Bypass everything. Would the bike run properly? The only way to shut it off then would be by the key not the kill switch. Actually would even the key shut it off?

I appreciate any ideas and comments...

Thanks
Neb

[Anonymous]

The ignitor is an amplifier, it takes the pulses from the pickups and makes them big enough for the coils. It may or may not modify the ignition timing on the bike too, depending on whether it has mechanical advance or not.

The power runs from the main fuse to the key where it gets routed to different wires depending on the position of the key. If you have more than one fuse it will run back to the fuse box and then to starter button.

Don't forget about the kickstand switch, and sometimes you need to wiggle the clutch lever to get the thing to work properly.

Keep testing, it's probably something you've tested and already deamed working properly.

Steve

[focus frenzy]

ok here is how the power wire for energizing the starter solinoid is wired on your bike.

power goes from the battery to the ignition switch through the 15 amp main fuse in the fuse box
it then goes back to the fuse box and through a 10 amp fuse that poweres both the relay and the ignitor and the coils
from the fuse it goes to the engine stop switch, just after the engine stop switch it has a wire that branches off to go to the ignitor and coils, after the branch line it goes to the clutch starter disconect switch and from there it goes to the starter solinoid.
I count 7 connectors in the path it follows and two fuses.

remove the fuses and clean the fuse holding clips with fine sand paper, the tarnish that forms on the fuse holders doesnt pass power very well and this is a common problem spot.
there is also a square white plastic plug for the wires from and to the fuse box, check it out, this can be a problem spot also, as is the plug for the switch pod located under the fuel tank.

good luck and stay calm, with every ones help you WILL get her running!

[Anonymous]

Thank you both very much. Its too late to look at it now I'll do it tomorrow and let you know what i've figured out.

Steve, thanks for explenation of igniter.

Focus Frenzy, you hit it on the spot. The fuses were in terrible conditon. I did file them, and replaced them all. You were also right about the white connector under the tank. I opended it up to test it and the damn thing fell apart in my hands. I mean it turned into sand.

I did not check anything on the key. i cant belive I am that stupid. This will be the thing to chek out tomorrow. Now I understand where the 12V come from...


Thanks again, I'll let you know what happens.

[argonsagas]

Since your fuses were bad, you must clean the internal connectors in the fuse box, as well. I had to replace the top of the fuse box on my GK last year, after it melted due to internal dirt. The increased resistance was on the hot side, so the fuse did not blow, but the intense and localized heat melted the box.

I replaced only the top as I could not find a box to exactly match the GK output pin connections. The internals vary with different models.

Older, exposed, (Buss-type) connectors are easy to clean, but the blade-type are a bit more problem. Take a dead fuse and break off the plastic. Wrap a bit of very fine sandpaper...grit number of 300 or higher to totally cover the blade.


Using pliers, poke the covered blade into the slot and give it a few wiggles.

Do this with EVERY slot. It is well worth the effort.

Small additional. I would also spray WD40 or a similar liquid into the slots after cleaning them, to ensure debris is washed off. Be sure the fluid drains and evaporates fully before re-installing anything.

[argonsagas]

Another point....since you already have the front wires and connectors exposed, pull each one apart and clean the connections. A tiny bit of dielectric grease will help to maintain a good connection for a longer time.

[Anonymous]

YOUR PROBLEM: Sometimes when you push the start button nothing would happen, other times it would fire up great. Now it never fires up.

-The starter relay does not get 12V on its 3rd small wire terminal. When I jump the bike by conecting the 3rd terminal to the battery bike fires up.

--------RESPONSE: Your starter relay has a direct cable from the battery and this hot wire provides the power to turn over the starter. To trigger this relay, a wire comes from the "ON" position on your kill switch. In the "OFF" position, no power to trigger the relay will NOT allow starting. All this power is "keyed"; that is runs through a fused circuit where the key acts as a switch. You have a break or short in the wire running from the kill switch to the starter relay in all liklihood. Another potential problem source could be that the button used to close the circuit (starter button) is not making good contact with the little plate behind it. If you look at the button, it is nothing more than a piece of plastic with a metal brad in the back. When depressed, the metal contacts a plate that closes the circuit and sends a small voltage signal to the starter relay. There is also a spring in between the plate and button to return the button. Often, the metal contacts can become corroded and may need some cleaning with an emory board or fine sandpaper. Don't scrape away too much material as this will eventually wear through the conductive material. Think positive here, at least you have learned how to hot wire a bike!

- Folowing the line from the starter relay into "starter disconect switch" or the cluth leaver, I get nice continuity to the lever, and it closes the circuit nice.
---> GOOD!

-From there it goes to the Start button and engine kill. I've opened these up and they seem to work fine. But still no 12 volt all the way up here when I press the button.
----> see initial comments

-From the on switch there are 3 wires. One that goes through clutch lever switch to the starter relay, and two more. One goes to the ignitor and the other one goes to the fuse.

-I have checked every wire and rewired some connections, and the continuity seems to be good everywhere.

---->he igniter wire is not an issue here. Since you have continuity from the fuse box to the switch, you are good... it is the wire from the switch to the starter relay that is likely the issue.

Here are my questions.

1. How does the 12V get to the starter button? Should the wire comming from the ignitor provide those 12 V?

---> wire from fuse box to starter button; igniter not part of this circuit... it is in the ignition circuit not starter circuit

2. What does the ignitor do? (This comes from the British manuel so I am not sure if American word is the same)

---> has already been explained but ignitors have various functions on various bikes. Most igniters on modern bikes get the signal from the crank position pickups located under your points cover and use these to determine timing based on a computerized map. Newer units lack mechanical advance mechanism which are nothing more than some weights which move outwards from the spinning crank and set a predetermined maximum ignition advance (spark fires a tad earlier than at idle) and the weights are pulled back into the mechanism when the rpms go down due to connected springs. The older igniters mainly just sent a signal to the coils to fire when the crank based positon sensors told it to and relied on a mechanical advance to provide igntion advance. Also, new igniters can connect to the carbs (vaccum port stuff) and the position of the throttle (actually the slide which is actuated by vacuum) provides info the the igniter which makes programmed advance desicions based on throttle (slide) position

3. like I said earlier, when I jump the starter relay switch to the battery the bike starts cranking. The tank was off so I am not sure if it would run as well. I am thinking about making a wire that goes from the starter relay (the 3rd small conection), through the switch and straight to the battery. Bypass everything. Would the bike run properly? The only way to shut it off then would be by the key not the kill switch. Actually would even the key shut it off?

---> The starter solenoid (relay) is a gizmo that is the heart of a triggered circuit. It gets power and sends this power along to somewhere else (in this case the starter). The relay closes when hit with positive voltage coming from somewhere else. This is the relay "trigger" and in this case, the voltage comes from the VDC coming in from the kill switch... via the key, via the fuse box, via the battery... You could also start the bike by connecting a 2nd wire directly from your battery and "tickling" the lug where the trigger wire is connected. Just make sure this wire doesn't touch the frame while going down the road! bwhahahaha

I appreciate any ideas and comments...

---> You're welcome

[Anonymous]

Thank you all so much. Ubelivable how much help you can get on this site.

Untill couple days ago I knew basics about the electronics, but with all of your explenations I feel like I could fix my bike any time now.

Today I went to check the bike. Last thing I did last night is replace the connector under the tank, that goes to the start button. I tried to fire it up and when it didnt work I closed the shop for the night. Today first thing I noticed is that I left one connection open, the one just next to the relay. I connected it and the bike fired up. It was the white plug connection under the tank all along.

So today I solderd that connection nicely (last night I just twisted wires + electrical tape.)
I also had some problems with fuse box, which was missing cover and gave me few turning lights/headlights problems. So just to be safe, I removed the whole thing and rewired it with new style automotive fuses. All the fuses are now in plastic covering protected from rain and dirt. I tucked them all nicely under the seat.

Then I went for a ride. HAHA! Much more fun then driving my old tuck!

In last 6 months I have replaced the head gasket involving some broken exaust bolts (pain to remove), cleaned the carbs with few stuck screws, replaced the broken speedometar, changed the old tires and rewired half the bike! I am tired, I just want to ride now!

Today in 78F weather it all paid off. I put on my brand new summer pair of gloves, my brand new Joe Rocket Phoenix summer jacket (it feels like wearing nothing). Road out to the lake and then back into town to my favourite restaurant to celebrate.

Thank you all again for the help!

Neb