?? do I have to use a tube in the front tire of a 1980 Gs100

[Anonymous]

Ok,

I'm running in to a little trouble getting the bead to set on my front tire. I just finished changing the tire and valve stem. Now I cant get the bead to set.

A little back ground on this. When I removed the old tire, it had a tube in it. I cleaned up the rim, installed a valve stem and then mounted my new tire. I have been trying 3 nights this week to try and get this tire to set bead.
If anyone has any ideas, any at all!!! I would greatly appreciate any assistance..

Thanks

Knut[/b]

[earlfor]

Re: ?? do I have to use a tube in the front tire of a 1980 G

Go to you local Home Depot (or whatever) and buy a ratcheting tie down strap long enough to go around the tire's tread. tighten the strap until it pushes the tire bead onto the rim. Air up the tire until the tire bead seals and then remove the ratcheting strap before completing filling the tire with air.

Earl

Ok,

I'm running in to a little trouble getting the bead to set on my front tire. I just finished changing the tire and valve stem. Now I cant get the bead to set.

A little back ground on this. When I removed the old tire, it had a tube in it. I cleaned up the rim, installed a valve stem and then mounted my new tire. I have been trying 3 nights this week to try and get this tire to set bead.
If anyone has any ideas, any at all!!! I would greatly appreciate any assistance..

Thanks

Knut[/b]

[Hap Call]

I hate to tell you this but the rims for your bike (I'm guessing that they are stock rims) are not designed for riding without tubes. It can be done but they do not have an additional ridge that the tubeless rims have.

Hap

[jimcor]

I hate to tell you this but the rims for your bike (I'm guessing that they are stock rims) are not designed for riding without tubes. It can be done but they do not have an additional ridge that the tubeless rims have.

Hap

Hap's correct. Now, I do run a tube in the front of my '80 550 because the wheel is porous and leaks air without it, I used to run it tubeless. Rear wheel is presently without a tube. So you run 'em without a tube at your own risk.

[Joe Nardy]

Knut,

I'm assuming you're having trouble getting the bead to initially seat, as in getting the tire to hold air. If this is the case, one suggestion is to get as much air flowing into the tire as possible. Remove the valve stem and use a good high pressure compressor. Hopefully you have your own compressor because it is getting harder and harder to find gas stations with good compressors. Earl's idea to use a racheting tie down is a good idea too. Also, put some soapy water around the bead of the tire. This will help it initially seal and also lube it up so the bead will seat completely. If you can't get it done yourself, try a tire store. They know all the tricks and will get it done quickly.

As far as running the tubeless tire, there have been many discussions about this on this site. I'll just say that I have been running tubeless tires on my '83 GS1100E (which originally had tubes) for at least 15 years with no problems whatsoever. I do keep a close eye on air pressure but I've never seen any loss greater than on any other bike I've owned, tube or tubeless.

Good Luck,
Joe

[Sandy]

If you run tubeless tires on tube type rims you are courting disaster. Tube type rims don't have the safety bead needed to properly retain the tire bead. If you have an impact on the tire such as road debris (rocks, boards, etc) the tire will lose its seal and go flat instantly. It's hard enough to regain control after hitting something. It's even harder with a flat tire. This can also happen if the tire develops a slow leak while you are riding and loses air. In ideal circumstances you can get away with it, but biking conditions are usually far from ideal. Just remember that your tires are really the only thing that keeps your butt off the road. Spend a couple of bucks and buy a tube.

[Anonymous]

tire seat

The ratchet strap works, so does a heavy rope or a chain.
When I was younger, ohh sooo many years ago, we had a rubber do-nut, it was 2-3" in section diameter and slightly smaller than the bead of the tire. Whenever we had a pia tire we'd slop up the donut with tire lube, slide it on over the rim so it was sandwitched in between the bead and the rim an put the tire chuck on. The donut would make a temporary seal, as soon as you put the air to the tire valve, the donut would slip out, and the bead would seat, slick and worked 95% of the time.
Another method I've sen used is starting fluid, don't recommend it and if someone decides to use it, get the hell outa' there, very dangerous.....Mike

[Anonymous]

Well put Sandy. I agree, your tires are the most important money you will spend. What's a couple a hundred compared to a week in the hospital and a trashed ride? 8O

[Joe Nardy]

If you run tubeless tires on tube type rims you are courting disaster. Tube type rims don't have the safety bead needed to properly retain the tire bead. If you have an impact on the tire such as road debris (rocks, boards, etc) the tire will lose its seal and go flat instantly. It's hard enough to regain control after hitting something. It's even harder with a flat tire. This can also happen if the tire develops a slow leak while you are riding and loses air. In ideal circumstances you can get away with it, but biking conditions are usually far from ideal. Just remember that your tires are really the only thing that keeps your butt off the road. Spend a couple of bucks and buy a tube.

Sandy,

First point: I've heard the argument of the tire losing it's seal but I have to question what would happen under the same conditions on a tubed tire. Once the tire loses it's bead seal it could easily rotate on the rim which could (and will) tear the tube's valve stem, resulting in instant deflation. If the impact causes the tire to pinch the rim edges this will also puncture a tube at the pinch points. Another possibility is that the tube could get pinched between the tire and the rim when the bead re-seals. This is also a recipe for a blowout. I just feel that if you hit something hard enough to break the tire seal you're in trouble whether you run tubes or not.

Second point: This is the main reason I prefer to run tubeless. Tires with tubes in them tend to deflate quickly once puctured, usually within a few revolutions. Tubeless tires tend to deflate much slower. Tubeless tires will grab an object in the tread and as a result have a slow leak. We've all seen tubeless tires with objects in them that hold air reasonably well. I'll bet you've never seen that with a tubeless tire............


Thanks,
Joe

[Anonymous]

solution

I decided to buy a new tube. I installed it last night.
Now I have to wait for my extended cables to show up.

I got everything installed on my new handle bars except for the brake. It's like maybe 2 inches too short. Everthing else when on smooth. So now I wait on ups for delivery of my new cables/brake hose. The waiting is killing me, I havent ridden my Big GS in over a month. I hope ups hurries up and delivers

Thanks for all of the ideas, I may go check out the salvage yard and see it the have any deccent looking rims, since I have to got up there anyway to check on a chrome fender that they are suppose to be holding for me.
Again that you very much for the help and advice. you guys are great@!!!!


Knut

[Anonymous]

I'm with Hap & Joe, no tubes for me. I'm also glad to see jimcor's post, I've heard rumors of porus rims ever since they've been making mags for bikes, now I've heard of someone who actually had one. Can someone tell me where the special tubeless bead is? I've stood 2 Suzuki rims together, one marked tubeless & the other not marked, and looked for any difference. I didn't find anything different anywhere. There was no visible bead that I could see anywhere.

[Anonymous]

I'll just say that I have been running tubeless tires on my '83 GS1100E (which originally had tubes) for at least 15 years with no problems whatsoever.

That's because your front wheel is most probably designed for tubeless operation. I say "probably" because I'm not 100% sure about the "E" models as I am about the "G" shafties.

In 1982 Suzuki installed new wheels on the shafties, and probably on the "E" models as well. A 1982 or 83 GS850G or GS1100G will have these tubeless rims. These rims are a bit wider than the previous rims, and they clearly state "tubeless" on them. The previous front rims do not state this tubeless application, yet the rear ones do. Weird.

The earlier rims have the "pentagram" (star) design to their spokes, and are totally compatible with the newer ones. I know that from my own experience; I have the rim off my old 1979 GS850GN on my GK right now.

According to my independent mechanic, who is Suzuki trained, the earlier rims are porous and will lose air slowly. The newer rims don't have that problem.

Since I run old front rims on my 1984 GS1100GK, (the stock front tubeless rim was bent when I bought the bike), I have my mechanic install a tube in it. It may be quite OK to run the front rim without a tube, but I'm unwilling to take that chance.

Nick

[Sandy]

I'm with Hap & Joe, no tubes for me. I'm also glad to see jimcor's post, I've heard rumors of porus rims ever since they've been making mags for bikes, now I've heard of someone who actually had one. Can someone tell me where the special tubeless bead is? I've stood 2 Suzuki rims together, one marked tubeless & the other not marked, and looked for any difference. I didn't find anything different anywhere. There was no visible bead that I could see anywhere.

If you have early cast tubeless rims they were really no different in design than a tube type rim. When manufactures realized they weren't safe for tubeless use the area the tire sits on was modified to incorporate a safety bead that retains the tire bead better. The area in question is the tire mounting surface that is parallel to the axel. It is flatter (tube types have a slight taper), slightly wider and has a raised lip on the inside to capture the tire bead. It looks very similiar to an automotive rim in this area. Running with no tube on tube type rims is not a factor of the tire, but a factor of the rim and is not recommend by any of the tire or motorcycle manufacturers. It may not state this in your manual because tubeless hardware was probably not available at the time. If you insist on running tubeless and have a porous rim a quick application of paint or clear coat to the inside of the rim will usually fix this. It does not however eliminate the bead issue. I also agree that tubeless tire are superior to tube type tires, but only when mounted on the appropriate rims do you get the benefit of safety and convenience.

[Sandy]

[quote="Joe Nardy
Sandy,

First point: I've heard the argument of the tire losing it's seal but I have to question what would happen under the same conditions on a tubed tire. Once the tire loses it's bead seal it could easily rotate on the rim which could (and will) tear the tube's valve stem, resulting in instant deflation. If the impact causes the tire to pinch the rim edges this will also puncture a tube at the pinch points. Another possibility is that the tube could get pinched between the tire and the rim when the bead re-seals. This is also a recipe for a blowout. I just feel that if you hit something hard enough to break the tire seal you're in trouble whether you run tubes or not.

Second point: This is the main reason I prefer to run tubeless. Tires with tubes in them tend to deflate quickly once puctured, usually within a few revolutions. Tubeless tires tend to deflate much slower. Tubeless tires will grab an object in the tread and as a result have a slow leak. We've all seen tubeless tires with objects in them that hold air reasonably well. I'll bet you've never seen that with a tubeless tire............


Thanks,
Joe[/quote]

Ok here goes.
First point: With a momentary impact on a tube type rim it is quite common for the tire bead to unseat. Without a tube, air will escape almost instantly. The gap created with this type of impact is usually quite small and with a tube, the tube will push the tire back on rim without any air loss or pinching of the tube. A momentary unseating of the bead at the point of impact will not usually result the tire turning on the rim enough to tear a valve stem. See my note at the end regarding valve stems.

Second point: Punctured tube type tires tend to lose air fairly rapidly usually because they are mounted on wire wheels and leak air through the spoke holes. I've seen lots punctures while working at a local bike shop on setups with tubeless tires on cast tube type rims were the tube was deflated inside the tubeless tire while the tubeless tire still did its job and held air. They did not deflate instantly because of the tube. On these setups the tubes job is really only to keep the tires seated properly.

Tube Notes. A good tip when running tubes is to remove the valve stem nut, or thread it up against the valve cap, after you have inflated it. This will allow you to monitor any tire on rim movement by observing the angle of the valve stem. Under hard riding this can occur and if the rotation is excessive can tear the valve stem. Not good! This can be easily fixed without having to remove the wheel by simply deflating the tire, breaking the bead, have a buddy or bungie cord hold the brake and rotate the tire until the valve stem is back at the correct angle.

Cheap tubes have a tendency to split when punctured allowing more rapid air loss while better tubes with a higher rubber content tend not to split but just have a small hole. This results in slower air loss and allows for easier and more effective roadside repair.

If I sound a bit or a whole lot anal about this subject, Iam.

[Anonymous]

To my knowledge, prior to 1977, there were no tubeless motorcycle tires. Thus the mfg. would have no reason to stamp tubeless on the rims. After the cast, or mags, were introduced in I think 1976, the tire mfg. started working onthe design of the tubeless tires because they would work well on these new type wheels. After these now new tubeless tires were introduced, the bike mfgs. started marking tubeless on the rims, just to let you know they would work with tubeless tires. If the tubeless tires didn't work fine with the early wheels not marked tubeless, there would have never been any tubeless motorcycle tires. I see what Sandy is saying, there was probably an improvement made in the wheels in later years, such as this bead, but if the early wheels not marked tubeless wouldn't work with tubeless tires, the tire mfg. would never have developed these tires.