Clutch "thrust" bearing???

[crayonjota]

I have a noise that sounds so much like a car clutch that has a worn bearing coming from my bike. I know that it is coming from the clutch, because like in a car when you active the clutch the noise goes away. With a car the problem is just irritating, and I have left it to its own devices until time to change out the pressure plate/disc with no ill effect.

I dont know if I should take the chance with the bike though, and wanted some opinions. If I am going to all that trouble I think I will get some new springs and plates at the same time. Can I run it for say, 10,000 kms before swaping out the bearings, or will I just mess up something else???? CJ

[Anonymous]

noise

if you push the clutch in on your car and the noise goes away while in neutral then its not the throw out bearing its the trans face bearing, when you push the clutch in it loads the throw out bearing, releases the disc and the input shaft stops turning ( no noise ).so if it made noise while depressing the clutch then its the throw out bearing, if it makes noise while out of gear and the clutch is out then its the trans face bearing,

[Anonymous]

Alright, I'm gonna qualify this response by telling you first that I am far from the most experienced GS'er on this forum, so someone else will probably come along and offer a much better answer.

But I gotta say, your complaint of clutch noise is puzzling. I mean, car clutches and bike clutches don't compare very well. Your bike has a "wet" clutch, immersed in oil. It seems like if there's noticable grinding going on in oil...well, it's not just a worn bearing. It's some kind of broken part.

I don't know if you've worked on your bike much, but you can take a look at the parts breakdown on BikeBandit to see how your clutch goes together. My suggestion to you is get some of that grey gasket maker they sell at AutoZone or Advance (a friendly bike mechanic recommended it to me after he politely refused to work on my ol' 82 GK), pop that clutch cover off and have a look around. Be gentle with it and expect the guide posts to be difficult if they're corroded. Don't break the oil sight glass. And when you goop it up to put it back on, don't plug up the little oil jet that (probably) sits in the cover.

I would pay extra attention to the little radial roller bearing that's between the pressure plate and the release rack (the little bit with the teeth in it that links up to the lever in the cover). Also, check the clutch plates themselves (duh). You may want to disassemble the clutch hub, but that means you'll need special tools and a shop manual.

I think your intuition to not ignore it is right, though. If it's some kind of vital bearing, and it chooses to seize while you're in gear (and thus in motion) it could be ugly.

-DZ

[crayonjota]

But I gotta say, your complaint of clutch noise is puzzling. I mean, car clutches and bike clutches don't compare very well. Your bike has a "wet" clutch, immersed in oil. It seems like if there's noticable grinding going on in oil...well, it's not just a worn bearing. It's some kind of broken part.

I am a car mechanic by trade and therefore I use cars as points of reference.
The bike in motion or with the clutch lever pulled is just fine, no untoward noises. At idle it makes a very similar noise to a car clutch when the bearing is shot. When I pull the lever in, the noise goes away, as on a car when you step on the pedal the bearing noise goes. I have had a butchers at the Haynes manual and see a bunch of bearings, the most probable is called the "thrust" bearing, which looks like a walk in the park to change.

What I dont want to do is change that bearing and find that it is not the issue and have to strip the thing again. The grearbox is fine, the cluch plates and springs were replaced by me 8 months ago, it doesnt grab or do anything stupid. I dont know too much about the whole wet basket clutch thing, but all looks straight forward enough, and a lot easier to mess with than say, my integra, for the simple reason you dont need to pull the gearbox to get to it.. I have a case of gasket maker and no, I dont have any leaks..

I guess my question is really is the problem just the little thrust bearing or do I have to pull the whole assembly and replace a bunch of parts. This is the big issue as I have no access to anything other than oil in this country, and have to import everything else, which is time consuming and a bit pricey. The bearing should be sourced at my local bearing shop without difficulty, but anything suzuki specific will cause me some headache..

Thanks,

CJ

PS. Unrelated, someone gave me a case of Mobil 1, 5w30 fully synthetic oil yesterday for my integra. I think it is a bit light for that, but wondered if I could pour some into the GS? how does the synthetic work on that wet clutch, I only ask as I was stupid enough to add an aditive to the oil before, hence the need to change the clutch plates.........

[Anonymous]

Sounds more like a loose clutch hub nut to me.
They are known to come loose sometimes.
That produces a rattling noise of the clutch, especially when the gear is in neutral and the engine is idling.
It goes away under load.
It's a large (24mm ?) nut, just behind the clutch plates.
The proper torque should be 50-70 Nm.

I would check that first. It might be as simple as that.

[Anonymous]

Well, shoot, if you're an auto mechanic then I was probably preaching to the choir through most of that, huh? I guess I should always assume a GS owner is a technically able person, you kind of have to be to keep these things running.

I think we're talking about the same bearing - the thrust bearing and this thing I'm calling a radial bearing. The name for it on BikeBandit is vague, "RC 15X28X2 BRG."

Like I figured, a more experienced GS'er came along and offered a good explanation. The loose clutch hub nut makes complete sense in my mind, how it would go away under a load and all. That nut is supposed to be locked in place by the hub nut washer, which is bent on one side to meet the hexagonal face of the nut and keep it from turning. I guess that gets flattened somehow on these bikes, and then the nut is allowed to turn. My guess would be that if heavy clutch/tranny work is done, it's probably hard to bend it again without a special tool, so people don't do it and just hope torque will hold it (maybe the previous owner, in your case?). Why it's not a castellated nut and a pin, I don't know.

As far as the oil...Well, I once posted a thread that got some lengthy discussion about my problems with auto oil. Basically, when I first got the bike I ran Castrol GTX of the weight that the bike specs called for (5-W30, I think). My clutch began to drag a lot, and my friendly local bike mechanic who won't work on my GS suggested I try AMSOIL synthetic. There were two things that I was changing, in that (i) I was going to synthetic, and (ii) I was changing to dedicated motorcycle oil.

I'm not sure which of those factors was the biggest difference, but all of a sudden my bike stopped smoking at startup and stopped dragging the clutch and shifting poorly. Of course, it also began to leak - the synthetic is so much cleaner than dino oil, it will wash away some of the crud-buildup that your bike depends on to seal.

The better clutch and tranny performance I tend to chalk up to the fact that it was bike oil, which is engineered differently (the little two-letter codes are different, you'll notice). It makes sense - car oil is designed to run in a low-revving, water cooled engine. Bike oil needs to run in a high-revving, air-cooled engine AND transmission AND wet clutch.

If you're leak-free, and you can afford it, I'd suggest trying to get bike oil. Whether it's synthetic or not is up to you. I like it, but it means I have to redo a lot of the seals (valve cover, timing chain tensioner, clutch, etc.). AMSOIL has worked very well on my old GS. If you have problems getting oil/importing, then I think synthetic car oil is probably better than dyno car oil - it should keep that clutch clean.

[Anonymous]

Also, hey man, I'd be happy to help you with an import or two in exchange for some good auto advice. I have an old '86 Toyota Tercel SR5, and I know those things were designed for and marketed in countries outside the US. I need to change the inner tie rod end...is there a way to do it without pulling out the whole damn rack & pinion?

(GS'ers, please forgive the totally off-topic inquiry!)

[crayonjota]

Also, hey man, I'd be happy to help you with an import or two in exchange for some good auto advice. I have an old '86 Toyota Tercel SR5, and I know those things were designed for and marketed in countries outside the US. I need to change the inner tie rod end...is there a way to do it without pulling out the whole damn rack & pinion?

(GS'ers, please forgive the totally off-topic inquiry!)

After all the help you (and others) have given me with my clutch, it is the least I can do... First I will say that as yet I haven't pulled the clutch apart yet to find the culprit, but I am armed with a ton possibilities to look into. I will do it next week when the oil change (1000kms) is due...

Back to the tercel, I have changed loads of these (due to the poor roads we have) and you dont need to drop the rack down. Follow steps one to six in regard to your safety, namely once you get the damned thing jacked up off the ground plonk a couple of axle stands under the car, nothing else will do..

Naturally pull the front wheels and the undertray, if one is left on a car of this age, split the outer track rod end by taking out the split pin and nut (naturally enough in that order) and if you dont have a puller get an old fashioned lump hammer and a ball joint splitter rod (it doesnt matter here if you trash the dust covers..) and then move onto the inners..

CAREFULLY remove the gaiters that cover the inner rod and bend back the security tab. From there you need big ole spanner to match the two notches (I think 24mm is about right) or an adjustable jobbie. What doesnt fit? Then use an old english style pipe wrench (I bet there is a proper name for the thing, and my description is poor, but basically mine is 8" long and adjusts to fit anything from 8mm to stubborn oil filters and is small enough for little spaces, and never, ever, slips, as it is self tensioning. Mine is about 20yrs old. God bless Sheffield and real steel....) and slacken off the tension, then you should be able to wind that little beauty out by hand. Remember too, that you can change the position of the end nut by turning the wheel till you get enough space for your fingers and tool into.

Reverse this process to install, remebering new locking tabs and split pins in the apropriate places. (they should come "free" in the track rod kit box, and no, a rusty nail bent over doesnt cut it. Ever.)

I always replace the gaiters too, as at about $4.00 each it doesnt make sense not too.. I think the rods are the same on assist or non assist racks, but the gaiters are different. Hope this helps and makes just bit of sense..

CJ

[redliner1973]

PS. Unrelated, someone gave me a case of Mobil 1, 5w30 fully synthetic oil yesterday for my integra. I think it is a bit light for that, but wondered if I could pour some into the GS? how does the synthetic work on that wet clutch, I only ask as I was stupid enough to add an aditive to the oil before, hence the need to change the clutch plates.........

NO! 5w-30 is WAY too thin for your GS. 10w-40, 15w-40, 20w-50 only! BTW, Amsoil 10w-40 'car' oil and Amsoil 10w-40 'bike' oil are exactly the same oils, in 2 different bottles.

[crayonjota]

PS. Unrelated, someone gave me a case of Mobil 1, 5w30 fully synthetic oil yesterday for my integra. I think it is a bit light for that, but wondered if I could pour some into the GS? how does the synthetic work on that wet clutch, I only ask as I was stupid enough to add an aditive to the oil before, hence the need to change the clutch plates.........

NO! 5w-30 is WAY too thin for your GS. 10w-40, 15w-40, 20w-50 only! BTW, Amsoil 10w-40 'car' oil and Amsoil 10w-40 'bike' oil are exactly the same oils, in 2 different bottles.

I have been bad. I went out today and wrung the neck of my little GS, trail braking, wheelies and spinning up the rear wheel were order of the day. This week I will pull the clutch apart and see what gives...

As to the Oil, I will stick to the Havoline, though someone has started to import Repsol, which should be good enough to handle the extreme heat...