Battery drain?

[Guest]

Need some suggestions and advice, folks.
1. My charging system is OK, does 13.5 volts and I have a new regulator/ rectifier unit too.
1. But the GSX1100 got more and more tired at startup -- would crank OK but wouldn't fire up.
2. Soooo... about a month ago, after checking out the battery with a hydrometer, it turned out to be stuffed. Bought a new battery, popped it in and bingo, cranked wonderfully, fired up immediately, etc. etc. I was a happy man once more.
3. But in the last week or so, my joy has evaporated. Slow cranking, needing to bump-start the thing again, etc. etc.
4. Yesterday, I went for a four-hour ride down south. Bike thundered along, plenty of opportunity to restore the spark to that battery, I thought (any excuse for a ride: "Just off to charge the battery, Dear!")
5. Got home, parked the bike. Went to hit the starter button this morning, and the same old slow cranking, no firing-up, etc. :x
6. I suspect a slow drain to earth somewhere in the system that has become a big drain Does anyone have a hunch what components might be responsible for this, assuming this is the issue?
7. Or, might it be a knackered starter motor? It has always been slow to start when the engine is hot (eg. traffic running) but I have put up with it until now. I have checked and when hot, it pulls mega-volts but very slow to perform. But has always been fine when cold. So maybe it's not fine when cold any more?
8. Or....? I'm getting a little testy, I must say. New battery, fine alternator and reg./rect. ... what more must a man do?
Cheers,
Mike.

[earlfor]

It appears all is well with your charging system. Its getting juice out of the battery that is the problem. Everything, with the exception of the starter motor and relay passes through the fuse block. Since it is a slowly deteriorating condition, I suspect corrosion. There is a red main power supply usually connected from the battery + terminal to the fuseblock. I would check this wire for corrosion and brittleness. Next, I would remove the fuseblock and pop the back off it to inspect the internal connections to each fuse. I would be surprised if it is clean. Current leaving the fuseblock is divided by the fuses into various circuits. You can check end voltage at an accessory for each fused circuit to narrow down further problem areas. I would particularly check the input voltage to the coils.

Earl

[tfb]

Thanks for that Earl, that's all stuff I didn't know and you've given me plenty to go on with.
I will see how I go but I'm off over to the Eastern states (of Australia, that is) for a couple of weeks so probably won't make much headway until I get back. But will keep you all posted as to how things go.
Cheers,
Mike.

[earlfor]

I wish I could just pop over to the the eastern states for a couple weeks. (OZ that is. :-) )

Earl

Thanks for that Earl, that's all stuff I didn't know and you've given me plenty to go on with.
I will see how I go but I'm off over to the Eastern states (of Australia, that is) for a couple of weeks so probably won't make much headway until I get back. But will keep you all posted as to how things go.
Cheers,
Mike.

[tfb]

G'day Earl,

Biking around the SW of Oz is great. The East is even better, with lots of winding roads up the Great Dividing Range. Years since I've ridden there (I'm originally an Eastern Stater but these days I'm marooned here in the West) but one day I may get the chance again.

Anyway, back to the problems at hand with the motorcycle...

1. I pulled apart the fuse block like you suggested, and it was indeed a bit grimy in there. All clean now, and I took some fine emery to the contacts to make sure all is well. BUT it seems there was a loose-ish connection at one of the spade connectors for the ignition fuse, and this had gotten so hot that the black plastic surrounding it was melted, and the plastic of the fuse itself was also melted (but the fuse -- 10 amp -- didn't blow). So I tightened up the connector by giving it a gentle crimp.

2. But... the fuse block is polyethylene plastic (I think that's the right name, ie. the same plastic icecream containers are made of) which cannot be glued (didn't stop me trying with a variety of adhesives, though). It appears that it was orignally 'plastic welded' together in some way. What do you suggest for getting it to hold together? At the moment I have just wrapped some plastic insulation tape around the whole shebang. Not pretty but it works.

3. I checked that red wire like you said. Looks OK to me, but if problems persist I will just replace it. There is a bullet-connector in the middle which I pulled apart and then pressed back together; seems to be OK too. Did a bit more searching in the vicinity of the wiring around the side of the battery there, and found some super-dodgy soldered connections floating around. Spent a bit of time with the soldering iron and some heat-shrink sleeving to tidy things up.

3. I fully charged the battery over about 8 hours (using a 1600mA 'charge & maintain' unit) to check the battery was OK. Well the fact that it was taking so long told me that the battery was probably 1/2 dead. Anyway when finally the green LED lit up, I removed the charger and hit the button -- and she fired up like a space shuttle at the first dab of the button! So the starter motor is OK.

4. So then I double-checked my charging system. I didn't rev the engine too hard, but at about 4000rpm I got 13.2 volts (no headlight on). How does that sound to you? I think it's OK but maybe my stator is on the way out?

5. Assuming that it's charging OK, I have a mystery on my hands: it's charging, and the battery appears to be getting the charge, but with time the battery goes flat. And when I go for a long ride (as per yesterday) the battery is flat at the end of it.

Well I must admit that I'm more than a little stumped by this whole saga. I must be overlooking something -- but when the battery, starter motor, and charging system all appear to be fine, what is there left to check?

Although you did mention something about checking the input voltage to the coils... could you explain a bit more on why you think I should check that?

Cheers again,
Mike.

[earlfor]

Hey Mike

For clarity's sake. I will place my answers after your questions...............

G'day Earl,


Anyway, back to the problems at hand with the motorcycle...

1. I pulled apart the fuse block like you suggested, and it was indeed a bit grimy in there. All clean now, and I took some fine emery to the contacts to make sure all is well. BUT it seems there was a loose-ish connection at one of the spade connectors for the ignition fuse, and this had gotten so hot that the black plastic surrounding it was melted, and the plastic of the fuse itself was also melted (but the fuse -- 10 amp -- didn't blow). So I tightened up the connector by giving it a gentle crimp.
****************** The fuse didnt blow. That is a problem. It means the resistance prior to the fuse was enough to melt things and the flow stopped there. I had the same problem a couple days ago on my 1100 rebuild. (burned black connector in the fuseblock and melted housing) Snip the wire off close going to that connector in the fuse block.
With a pair of needle nose pliers, you can pull the connector out of fuseblock from the contact side. A standard connector with the insulation removed will fit back into the fuseblock. Push the wire through from the back side, strip the end, crimp a new connector and push the connector down into place.

2. But... the fuse block is polyethylene plastic (I think that's the right name, ie. the same plastic icecream containers are made of) which cannot be glued (didn't stop me trying with a variety of adhesives, though). It appears that it was orignally 'plastic welded' together in some way. What do you suggest for getting it to hold together? At the moment I have just wrapped some plastic insulation tape around the whole shebang. Not pretty but it works.
**************** Same problem I had. Spray the contacts inside with some corrosion block, or just brush a little vaseline on them. Wrap the box with some plastic electrical tap. It will be fine. Also, by doing it this way, you now have easy future access.

3. I checked that red wire like you said. Looks OK to me, but if problems persist I will just replace it. There is a bullet-connector in the middle which I pulled apart and then pressed back together; seems to be OK too. Did a bit more searching in the vicinity of the wiring around the side of the battery there, and found some super-dodgy soldered connections floating around. Spent a bit of time with the soldering iron and some heat-shrink sleeving to tidy things up.
**************************Again, me too. :-) When done, check the voltage at the end of the red wire. If all is well, it will be the same as voltage at the battery terminals.

3. I fully charged the battery over about 8 hours (using a 1600mA 'charge & maintain' unit) to check the battery was OK. Well the fact that it was taking so long told me that the battery was probably 1/2 dead. Anyway when finally the green LED lit up, I removed the charger and hit the button -- and she fired up like a space shuttle at the first dab of the button! So the starter motor is OK.
***********************That shows your battery will accept a charge, so we're OK on that one.

4. So then I double-checked my charging system. I didn't rev the engine too hard, but at about 4000rpm I got 13.2 volts (no headlight on). How does that sound to you? I think it's OK but maybe my stator is on the way out?
******************* The charging system (RR) should have a design point perfect, voltage of 14.7 volts with the engine running at 5000 rpm.
Make your voltage check at that rpm. Anything between 14.5 and 14.9 is within acceptable range. Charging current should not hold steady at a level greater than 14.9 volts regardless of rpm increases beyond 5K.
If it does, your RR is faulty.

The RR can only convert AC current to DC that it receives from the stator.
In a nutshell, you can have voltage, but not amperage. Lets make sure the stator and RR are OK. Disconnect the plug coming from your stator.
The three yellow (usually) stator AC output wires from the stator exit from under the countershaft sprocket cover and run to the RR. Unplug it.
Set your multimeter to the AC scale 200 volts. The stator is 3 wire, 3 phase. All leads from it are electrically the same, just different phases.
If we call the wires 1,2, and 3, then you want to take your reading between 1 and 2, then between 2 and 3, then between 1 and 3. Each phase should output 80 volts AC (yes AC) at an engine rpm of 5000.
Some variance is acceptable. If these reading are OK and your R/R is within the charging range at 5000 rpm, then we are certain your charging system is fine.

5. Assuming that it's charging OK, I have a mystery on my hands: it's charging, and the battery appears to be getting the charge, but with time the battery goes flat. And when I go for a long ride (as per yesterday) the battery is flat at the end of it.
*************** My answer to 4 may shed some light on this. If not, we shall systematically start eliminating things. :-)

Well I must admit that I'm more than a little stumped by this whole saga. I must be overlooking something -- but when the battery, starter motor, and charging system all appear to be fine, what is there left to check?
********************* When working on my bike and I get to a point of everything looking fine and it still doestn work, I come to one conclusion. I have made an error somplace. :-) :-) :-)

Although you did mention something about checking the input voltage to the coils... could you explain a bit more on why you think I should check that?
******************** You said it would crank, but was slow to start.
If it turns over and over and over before starting, the first check I would make is the voltage to to ignition circuit.

Earl

Cheers again,
Mike.

[tfb]

Thanks Earl,

Well the plane for the East leaves shortly, so I won't get to look at the machine for another couple of weeks. But I when I return I will check out the wiring some more and then start suspecting the stator; I went through all the diagnostics with it a few months ago and it checked out OK then... but maybe with everything else now 'healthy' it's decided to fall into a hole, as electrical components tend to do when you replace other items. Electronics is a dark art, that's for sure. I think (hope :? ) the RR is OK as that unit is only a few months old.

So I will report back when I'm back on deck. Until then, enjoy your winter (although in Melbourne, our initial destination it's drizzle, rain and 20 degrees -- typical).

Cheers,
Mike.

[tfb]

Well, got back from holidays, all was dandy. Then it was time to continue sleuthing out what's happening with the Katana's electrics, which I have done this afternoon.

I taped a digital voltmeter to the petrol tank, connected it to the battery, and went for a ride down the freeway. Here's what I found:

1. With the headlights off, cruising at 110kph, the system sits at 14.33 volts. Which seems quite healthy to me.

2. But then, with the headlights on, the backside just falls out of the voltage... it just drops and drops and drops until you get to a measly 12.17 volts. Remember that this is at highway speed, ie. around 4000rpm. Sod it.

So, what do you all think of that??? I'm guessing that there must be something up with either (i) the headlight circuitry, (ii) the tail light circuitry, or (iii) the instrument light circuitry, ie. some sort of short. But then you would expect a fuse to blow, wouldn't you.

Help me here, folks! All suggestions appreciated.

Mike.

[argonsagas]

All of Earl's points are very good, and all should be done.

From your latest post, it appears your charging system is fading, and is lacking amperage, but that is less likely than other things. You have already had problems with connections, so, before doing anything else, look at more connections.

You said the voltage appears strong, and it also appears to be consistent while driving, but it fades when the headlights (plural) are on. Obviously, there is more current (amperage) draw when the lights are on, but your system should accommodate that.

Look for poor connections all along the way, and pay close attention to likely grounding problems, especially with the lights. A poor ground will invariably cause a heavier amperage draw than normal, and that additional draw will overtax an electrical system that did not have a lot of surplus ability even when brand new.


A good idea on GS bikes, even if you did not have problems, is to run a separate ground wire from the R/R mount to the battery, and you may even add an extra wire between the battery and the frame.

[tfb]

Thanks Ron -- from what you say, it looks like it's time to go systematically through the connections in the whole system. (By the way, "headlights" is a typo; the bike has the original single headlight.)

I have a new reg/rect. unit, and it has its own dedicated wires (earth and supply) running to the battery. I also have made sure that the battery is properly earthed to the rear of the engine, but I suppose it's possible that the old cable is dodgy, so I will try a second earthing cable to make sure.

Cheers,
Mike.

[earlfor]

Mike, before you go rechecking wires and scratching your head any more, do this for me. Disconnect the three yellow output wires coming from your stator/alternator. With them disconnected, start the bike and run it to 5K rpm. Check the AC voltage between each pair of legs on your stator at that rpm. It should be 80 volts AC. Lemme know whatcha get.

Earl

I have a new reg/rect. unit, and it has its own dedicated wires (earth and supply) running to the battery. I also have made sure that the battery is properly earthed to the rear of the engine, but I suppose it's possible that the old cable is dodgy, so I will try a second earthing cable to make sure.

Cheers,
Mike.

[duaneage]

There is something called Kirkofs' Law which states:

"The sum of the voltage drops in a circuit is equal to the appplied voltage"

This means that if you start out with 12.6 volts at the battery when you hit the starter button, you won't necesarily get 12.6 on the starter itself. small drops along the way add up and steal the amount of voltage to drive the starter.

You can work on the charging system all day but if you don't find the thief that steals your voltage you will not get it to work. I think your problem is the solenoid that activates the starter.

Place the leads of a voltmeter across the starter solenoid, with the red lead on the battery connection and the black lead on the starter connection. When you crank the bike you should see damn near 0 volts, no more than .5 volts.

That solenoid should be as efficient as a wire when engaged. The contacts arc sometimes, especially if the battery is weak and the solenoid "floats" or "buzzes". The arcing burns the contacts and creates resistance which makes it worse.

Happened to me years ago, after the third battery I bought.

[tfb]

Thanks Earl, I will do as you say (as much as I hate revving an engine with no load on it). I did this very test a few months ago, and at the time thought that the voltage between the three stator wires was acceptable (but I forget what figure that was exactly, don't have my Haynes manual on hand at the moment). But things may well have taken a dive since then so I will check it out. Stay tuned.

'duaneage', I'm afraid I'm having trouble seeing the point of what you are saying re. the starter solenoid. I'm not having any problems at all starting the bike when the battery is properly charged... but as it's so easy to do, I will check out the solenoid anyway!

Thanks again fellas and I will let you know how things go.

Mike.

[tfb]

G'day all,

Well after more sleuthing and then hooking up an ammeter to further analyse things, I found that yes indeed, the alternator was producing volts but stuff-all current: around 3 or 4 amps. Given that the headlight will pull around 5 amps, and that for safety's sake it's always on when riding, it was easy to see why things were slowly going flat.

Clearly the time was ripe to reach for the spanners. I pulled out the stator, and lo and behold, I was greeted by the sight of rather cooked windings...



So I took it off the local motorcycle electrics place to be rewound etc. The reg./rect. tested out perfectly, so that was good news.

Thanks to all for you help with nutting things through. Should have it all back together by middle of next week!

Cheers,
Mike.

[Anonymous]

Are those windings the original on the stator? They look a bit irreguar and loose.