1150 EF updating project

[lecroy]

Does anybody know , where to buy those by-pass valves (Eaton) ?

http://www.magnusonproducts.com/bypass.htm

Seems like matching a blower to a motor is a little more tricky than originally thought? You will get it figured out soon enough! Good luck!

[Blower]

http://www.magnusonproducts.com/bypass.htm

Seems like matching a blower to a motor is a little more tricky than originally thought? You will get it figured out soon enough! Good luck!

Yes , itīs a bit more complicated than I think . Iīm going to desing and make one special bypass valve , because all aftermarket bypass valves are too big .

[onetoomany]

Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuu?????????

SPEACHLESS....THAT IS AMAZING I HAD LIKE 4 HEART ATTACKS AND CREAMED THE PANTS ATLEAST TWICE WHILE LOOKING AT THIS THREAD:shock:
AMAZING MAN, F*ING AMAZING. GREAT JOB!! I CANT WAIT TO SEE WHAT IT'S LIKE WHEN ITS DONE AND HOW ITS RIDING FOR YOU.

[lecroy]

Yes , itīs a bit more complicated than I think . Iīm going to desing and make one special bypass valve , because all aftermarket bypass valves are too big .

I was wondering about this when you started. Would a simple reed valve work. Or, why not just over drive the thing and bleed the pressure on the other end? Not a real clean way to handle it.

[Blower]

I was wondering about this when you started. Would a simple reed valve work. Or, why not just over drive the thing and bleed the pressure on the other end? Not a real clean way to handle it.

A reed valve does not work , because at idle the flowing direction is from pressure side to suction side ( actually there is vacum in both sides but bigger in suction side ) .
In "off cruising speeds" and acceleration valve should to be closed .
If I ever going to build an other supercharged bike , Iīm going to put a throttle in pressure side of supercharger .

[lecroy]

A reed valve does not work , because at idle the flowing direction is from pressure side to suction side ( actually there is vacum in both sides but bigger in suction side ) .
In "off cruising speeds" and acceleration valve should to be closed .
If I ever going to build an other supercharged bike , Iīm going to put a throttle in pressure side of supercharger .

Sorry about that, went back and reread your original post...

"Between throttlebody and supercharger is more vacum than after supercharger + intake manifold volume is big "

That said I agree on the reed. I was thinking it was backwards for some reason. Can't you underdrive the blower to get a better match? Do you feed both pressures (after throttle plate and blower outlet) to the controller? Seems like if you knew ambient pressure, these two, plate position you could get it to control as is. I was looking over a book I have (very old) that talks a bit about what your trying to do. There is never any mention of trying to balance out the pressures with a bypass. These were very simple systems. No electronics.
Of course they may have ran like total crap as well.

[SDK]

Are there any recent pics of the pics out there. This thing sounds like a "BAMF" Bad A$% Mother F@*$&$%. , a real monster from start to finish. Good luck with the build hope you haven's thrown the wrence at it yet and walked away.

Shane

[Blower]

Sorry about that, went back and reread your original post...

"Between throttlebody and supercharger is more vacum than after supercharger + intake manifold volume is big "

That said I agree on the reed. I was thinking it was backwards for some reason. Can't you underdrive the blower to get a better match? Do you feed both pressures (after throttle plate and blower outlet) to the controller? Seems like if you knew ambient pressure, these two, plate position you could get it to control as is. I was looking over a book I have (very old) that talks a bit about what your trying to do. There is never any mention of trying to balance out the pressures with a bypass. These were very simple systems. No electronics.
Of course they may have ran like total crap as well.

Underdriving the blower does not help , itīs still there .
This is "borrowed" from Corky Bellīs book Supercharged! :
Cruise conditions and other normally aspirated operational modes can suffer from undesired pumping losses .
When cruising about 15 inches of vacuum , the system without bypass valve will create about 20 inches of vacuum between the throttle and blower , because the Roots is pulling from throttle plate . This "boosting" is a constant and unnecessary waste of power and also produces a small amount of heat .
Although the heat is not too harmful , the bypass valve fixes this situation , allowing the Roots (or any other blower mounted after the throttle) to "freewheel" by pumping back into its intake side , balancing the pressure between the manifold and throttlebody .

Bypass is vacuum operated and get its vacuum from intake manifold .

MAP sensor got itīs singnal from intake manifold only .
Only bypass valve can help to get idle more normal . Then I can start with ECU mapping .

[lecroy]

Underdriving the blower does not help , itīs still there .
This is "borrowed" from Corky Bellīs book Supercharged! :
Cruise conditions and other normally aspirated operational modes can suffer from undesired pumping losses .
When cruising about 15 inches of vacuum , the system without bypass valve will create about 20 inches of vacuum between the throttle and blower , because the Roots is pulling from throttle plate . This "boosting" is a constant and unnecessary waste of power and also produces a small amount of heat .
Although the heat is not too harmful , the bypass valve fixes this situation , allowing the Roots (or any other blower mounted after the throttle) to "freewheel" by pumping back into its intake side , balancing the pressure between the manifold and throttlebody .

Bypass is vacuum operated and get its vacuum from intake manifold .

MAP sensor got itīs singnal from intake manifold only .
Only bypass valve can help to get idle more normal . Then I can start with ECU mapping .

"Underdriving the blower does not help , itīs still there ." You know this because you tried it? Or you think this is the problem because you read it?

Would be interesting to hear it run. The key in the book is suffer. The bypass seems pretty common now, but I can find no mention of it in older books I have. I would doubt that this means that older motors could not idle. I would not be surprized if they did not idle as good as a modern factory engine. Can you get your engine to idle at all? How much does it wander? Sure you not fighting some PID tune problem?

Turning the compressor at a slower rate would drop the pressure in the manifold. On one extream, say it does not turn at all and the seals are good. There will be no flow and the pressure on the compressors outlet will drop. The outlet side of the throttle plate in this case would be at ambient (much higher pressure). At some combination it would seem you could reach a steady state condition for a given speed. Seems like it would then be a question of the gain of the compressor and how well that matched.

You could always gut the blower. LOL.

[lecroy]

Underdriving the blower does not help , itīs still there .
This is "borrowed" from Corky Bellīs book Supercharged! :
Cruise conditions and other normally aspirated operational modes can suffer from undesired pumping losses .
When cruising about 15 inches of vacuum , the system without bypass valve will create about 20 inches of vacuum between the throttle and blower , because the Roots is pulling from throttle plate . This "boosting" is a constant and unnecessary waste of power and also produces a small amount of heat .
Although the heat is not too harmful , the bypass valve fixes this situation , allowing the Roots (or any other blower mounted after the throttle) to "freewheel" by pumping back into its intake side , balancing the pressure between the manifold and throttlebody .

Bypass is vacuum operated and get its vacuum from intake manifold .

MAP sensor got itīs singnal from intake manifold only .
Only bypass valve can help to get idle more normal . Then I can start with ECU mapping .

"Underdriving the blower does not help , itīs still there ." You know this because you tried it? Or you think this is the problem because you read it?

Would be interesting to hear it run. The key in the book is suffer. The bypass seems pretty common now, but I can find no mention of it in older books I have. I would doubt that this means that older motors could not idle. I would not be surprized if they did not idle as good as a modern factory engine. Can you get your engine to idle at all? How much does it wander? Sure you not fighting some PID tune problem?

Turning the compressor at a slower rate would drop the pressure in the manifold. On one extream, say it does not turn at all and the seals are good. There will be no flow and the pressure on the compressors outlet will drop. The outlet side of the throttle plate in this case would be at ambient (much higher pressure). At some combination it would seem you could reach a steady state condition for a given speed. Seems like it would then be a question of the gain of the compressor and how well that matched.

You could always gut the blower. LOL.

[Blower]

"Underdriving the blower does not help , itīs still there ." You know this because you tried it? Or you think this is the problem because you read it?

Would be interesting to hear it run. The key in the book is suffer. The bypass seems pretty common now, but I can find no mention of it in older books I have. I would doubt that this means that older motors could not idle. I would not be surprized if they did not idle as good as a modern factory engine. Can you get your engine to idle at all? How much does it wander? Sure you not fighting some PID tune problem?

Turning the compressor at a slower rate would drop the pressure in the manifold. On one extream, say it does not turn at all and the seals are good. There will be no flow and the pressure on the compressors outlet will drop. The outlet side of the throttle plate in this case would be at ambient (much higher pressure). At some combination it would seem you could reach a steady state condition for a given speed. Seems like it would then be a question of the gain of the compressor and how well that matched.

You could always gut the blower. LOL.

If you look at the older sc. engines intake manifolds , Iīm shure those are not so big in volume .
I found in Swedish super bike forum a topic , where someone ask about to put sc. in suzuki .
The guy who answered , was mounted a sc in his GSX R 1100 in early nineties .
It was with one big carb before sc and sc was mounted about same place where I have mine .
He wrote : it was impossible to adjust idle and every launch was a thrill ... wheelie or burnout . They try to underdrive it , but no help .
Other case was in Mustang forum . There someone ask , how to get his mustang with sc to idle well . Answer was bypass valve , what he doesnīt installed from the beginning . After bypass valve it was like na. car in normal driving .

Suzuki is idling , when warmed up , between 1000 and 3000 r/min

Why try to turn compressor a slower rate ? Lower sc r/min = less power .
When engine is idling better , I maybe overdrive sc more .LOL

[lecroy]

Suzuki is idling , when warmed up , between 1000 and 3000 r/min

Why try to turn compressor a slower rate ? Lower sc r/min = less power .
When engine is idling better , I maybe overdrive sc more .LOL

From watching the old blown engines I bet they hunt 2000 RPM. Does seem a little much for a motorcycle. LOL.

Yea, I was thinking if you just wanted the looks it could be a hollow blower. LOL. Bypass makes a lot of sense but seems like a good control system could make it work without. But a lot of sensors and software may be at hand to do it. The little mega squirt may have to be upgraded. Making a diesel idle has similar problems.

Lower sc r/min = less power, I have been wondering this from the start. How much power do you figure you can really use on a street bike like this? I will very humbly state that I can not ride my GSXR to it's full potential (or close) and it's rated for 150HP. So lower sc r/min = less power = safer = less fuel demands = easier on parts. Damm, sound like my mom now...

Will very much enjoy hearing how it rides on the street.

[Blower]

From watching the old blown engines I bet they hunt 2000 RPM. Does seem a little much for a motorcycle. LOL.

Yea, I was thinking if you just wanted the looks it could be a hollow blower. LOL. Bypass makes a lot of sense but seems like a good control system could make it work without. But a lot of sensors and software may be at hand to do it. The little mega squirt may have to be upgraded. Making a diesel idle has similar problems.

Will very much enjoy hearing how it rides on the street.

The man who built my megasquirt (Arttu) and I try to get it idle on last sunday .
We work with it 5 hours and without better idle than 1000 - 2500 r/min .
In data log O2 value was ok , but manifold pressure and rpm wandering .
Many fuel injected cars have a idle valve which fixes idle problems . Megasquirt supports this kind of valves and there is tuning table with PID for idle valves .
But , to install idle valve + more cables and electronics or vacuum controlled bypass .
I think bypass is easier (but Iīm more mechanical than electrical man LOL ) .

[lecroy]

I think bypass is easier (but Iīm more mechanical than electrical man LOL ) .

I have to agree. The electronics and software could be a real pain to get working.

If I use Terrys ballpark numbers for my motor, its about 100HP + 7HP X PSI. So with 10PSI, say 170HP. This is a bit conservative. On line calculators put it in the 220HP range. I could care less, but my point is I weight in at 730 LBs was running 159MPH trap speeds in the 1/4 mile from a dead stop with only 10PSI (its all in the clutch). I am guessing you and your bike will be a little lighter than mine plus you have a smaller tire. Just don't get yourself killed on that fancy thing. We like having you around this site!!

[Blower]

I have to agree. The electronics and software could be a real pain to get working.

If I use Terrys ballpark numbers for my motor, its about 100HP + 7HP X PSI. So with 10PSI, say 170HP. This is a bit conservative. On line calculators put it in the 220HP range. I could care less, but my point is I weight in at 730 LBs was running 159MPH trap speeds in the 1/4 mile from a dead stop with only 10PSI (its all in the clutch). I am guessing you and your bike will be a little lighter than mine plus you have a smaller tire. Just don't get yourself killed on that fancy thing. We like having you around this site!!

I have calculated estimated power this way :

Stock power 123 hp + 10 hp from fuel injection = 133 hp
133 hp x ( boost 0.5 bar + atmospehric pressure 1 bar ) = 199.5 hp
199.5 hp - "blower power" 16 hp = 183.5 hp in crankshaft .
Maybe more if everything are in "harmonic balans" ( exhaust & intake lentghs , camshafts , ignition , cyl. head porting , etc ) .

Rear tire I have is Michelin pilot power 180/55/17 .
I try to be wery careful when I ride that bike .