Cartridge emulators, RaceTech springs, anti-dive Q's

[justin caise]

I'm vascilating between congegating and regurgitating...
can't figure whether it is better to vibrate or oscilate.
But I iterate...

http://www.fjmods.btinternet.co.uk/emulators.htm

http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_9502_tech/index.html

http://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/tech/race_tech_cartridge_emulator/index.html

Desicions, decisions,

[Television and internet - providing daily radiation treatments worldwide.]

[posplayr]

Thanks those are excellent links

:-D I found the last one with Google but the first and second look excellent and also deserve quite study.
Posplayr

[posplayr]

Racetech emulators GS1100ED

OK I got my emulators to install on my 83 GS1100ED with anti dive.

The directions say to drill two additional holes for a total of 4 at 10 mm alternating 90 degree angles. However there is an additional note:

"if the bike is equipped with Anti-Dive Mechanism........ The new holes should be drilled starting just above the Bottom-out cones (or washers on models with washers).

OK so in the pic you can see where I located pencil marks for the two opposing holes above where the washers go.

* The OEM holes are at 12 mm so I spaced these upper two the same amount. Is this right?

Also any recommendations on setting the Emulator Valving. It says two turns for street and 4 for racing. I weight 200 lbs and set them up with Progressive springs in front and Ohlins in the rear.

* Mac I see you went to the full race setting on the adjusted by adding the two turns.
I could go for 3 turns and back off as required from there.

Mac on the GS1100ET progressive (Fork Spring 11-1107) says to add a 3" spacer so going with only 2" is probably to adjust for your lower weight. EZ/ED (82-83) goes with no spacer. Also I measured the preload adjuster it provides 13 mm of adjustment and the emulator seems to add 14 mm of stack height. So I might just see if I can stuff the progressives in and leave the preload at minimum and see how that rides. I'd rather not cut the spring right now if I dont have to. There will be plenty of time for fine tuning later.

* Should I simply cut the spring to make up for the stack height increase of the emulator or as suggested above just see if I can stuff them in?


Joe, any updates on your ride???

I will probably have to make some final installed suspension height and ride stiffness measurements but just looking for some other peoples experiences to reduce my trial and error.

TIA


Posplayr

[Mark M]

Posplayer,

The best thing to do with the anti-dive is block it off and ignore it. The goal with the additional holes is to eliminate any compression damping effect in the damper rod and move it all to the emulator. I would think what you have marked will be fine. If in doubt, call Race Tech support and ask them.

I would also try 2 turns first, the emulators transform how well a damper rod fork works and you will be astonished at the improvement. Start at the plush end and work stiffer if you feel the need, but I bet you leave them at 2 turns and marvel at the improvement.

As for a preload spacer, I can't say. I cut nearly 4" off my PS springs, so I needed spacers anyway. The only way to know is to cut just the emulator amount off and work from there, based on sag numbers. Given your weight, I think you will need some spacers, though. You know to cut the end with the closer coil spacing, right?:-D Also, make sure you close and grind the end flat after cutting it.


Mark

[Joe Nardy]

Just from memory, your additional hole placement looks like what I did. I am still playing around with settings and oil weight to get the ride I want. I started out with a stiffer emulator setting, around 3 turns and 20 weight oil. I have Progressive springs and do not use spacers. I run the preload at the lightest setting. With that setup it was too stiff and harsh for my liking. The handling was very nice when pushed hard but the overall ride quality was too stiff. I have changed to 10 weight oil and backed the emulator setting to the recommended setting (2 3/4 turns?) but haven't had a chance to ride it yet. Just bouncing the front end feels considerably softer than what I had before. Hopefully I'll get it on the road by this weekend and can give you a report. For reference, I weigh 225 lbs. and run Ikon shocks with pretty heavy springs. For one-up riding I use damping setting two or three out of four on the shocks. As currently set up the rear is noticeably more compliant than the front end.

Thanks,
Joe

[posplayr]

Thanks all this helps me focus a lot

Mark: The best thing to do with the anti-dive is block it off and ignore it.

I though in reading by drilling the holes you are disabling the anti-dive. I guess you are still allowing brake pressure to go to the anti dive. Well the easiest thing for me to do is to solder the banjo bolt so there is no braking compliance to the system from the anti-dive.

I could also fashion some little aluminum plates to go between the anti dive unit and the fork to block off any potential oil leaks. I'll probably do this later. Unfortunately the o-rings are on the wrong side so I would also have to make a flat gasket.

Mark: I would also try 2 turns first, the emulators transform

Joe: The handling was very nice when pushed hard but the overall ride quality was too stiff. I have changed to 10 weight oil and backed the emulator setting to the recommended setting (2 3/4 turns?)

Joe : You want to check your records? The manual says 2 turns is factory. If you are at 2 3/4 you added 3/4 turn.

Mac says he has the full 4 turns, but I bet he spends some days at the track.

How about me trying 2 1/2???? I figure that is getting to the harsh side and if it is too harsh I can always come back.

Mark: Given your weight, I think you will need some spacers, though.

Well that why I figure I'll see if I can get away will stuffing the full spring into the tube like it is. As comes from progressive for the 82-83 GS1100E (EZ/ED) there is no spacer required. The emulator is 14 mm stack height and the adjuster allows for 13 mm of range. At the lowest adjuster setting if I can get the spring in I figure I'm not going to be too far off and I won't have to end up cutting the spring 8-[.

I can save the blacksmithing for later...

Mark: You know to cut the end with the closer coil spacing, right?:grin: Also, make sure you close and grind the end flat after cutting it.

I know how cut (diamond blade Makita), I know how to grind (bench grinder or same Makita), How to you close the flat end???? Heat, or a hammer???

Joe: I started out with a stiffer emulator setting, around 3 turns and 20 weight oil. ....... I have changed to 10 weight oil

I guess I'll get some 10 wt oil. Let me know how it feels.

Thanks this is really helping reduce the range of my n-dimensional search (spring stack height, rates, emulator preload, fork oil, anti dive neuter)

Posplayr

[posplayr]

QuaiChangKane

I figure that disabling the actuator - even with the two extra brake lines - will still give an incredible increase in brake firmness while retaining the stock look.

I'm just thinking of cutting a sheetmetal plate to fit between the actuator and the fork leg with a gasket on each side - maybe even welded into place to eliminate any chance of leakage...

Did you ever get those plates made? I'm looking at needing some.

Posplayr

[Mark M]

I though in reading by drilling the holes you are disabling the anti-dive. I guess you are still allowing brake pressure to go to the anti dive.

<snip>

I know how cut (diamond blade Makita), I know how to grind (bench grinder or same Makita), How to you close the flat end???? Heat, or a hammer???

Posplayr

You do disable the compression increase caused by the anti-dive, but the brake fluid side still sees the extra hosing and fluid. When I went to braided SS lines, I simply used a 2 line setup and blocked off the anti-dive with a blind banjo bolt. Better lever feel and easier bleeding all in one change.

To close and grind, I heated the cut end with a torch and then pushed it onto the next coil. When it cooled, I ground it flat. You will never get that end flat with a hammer without heat as well.

Mark

[ironsheik]

So I'm mainly considering brake and suspension upgrades for my 83 gs1100e and this is all great info so far but the info here:

http://www.thegsresources.com/garage/gs_braketip.htm

and in subsequent threads I've found so far say that the anti-dive unit can just remain on the forks after taking them out of the loop. I like that idea best. Can't I just put a screw in place of the banjo bolt on the AD and be done with it?

Josh

[ironsheik]

You do disable the compression increase caused by the anti-dive, but the brake fluid side still sees the extra hosing and fluid. When I went to braided SS lines, I simply used a 2 line setup and blocked off the anti-dive with a blind banjo bolt. Better lever feel and easier bleeding all in one change.

I believe you just answered my question in the same breath I was asking, right?

Josh

[Joe Nardy]

I though in reading by drilling the holes you are disabling the anti-dive. I guess you are still allowing brake pressure to go to the anti dive. Well the easiest thing for me to do is to solder the banjo bolt so there is no braking compliance to the system from the anti-dive.

I could also fashion some little aluminum plates to go between the anti dive unit and the fork to block off any potential oil leaks. I'll probably do this later. Unfortunately the o-rings are on the wrong side so I would also have to make a flat gasket.

The easiest way to disable the anti-dive is to replace the single banjo bolt on the anti-dive unit with a regular bolt, use the single banjo bolt in place of the double on the caliper, and toss the extra brake line.

Joe : You want to check your records? The manual says 2 turns is factory. If you are at 2 3/4 you added 3/4 turn.

This was off the top of my head, that's why I put the '?' after the setting. I am now back at whatever the instructions say to use for normal street use. I think I was at the track setting before.

Thanks,
Joe

[posplayr]

Ok I think I'm getting it now

Joe: The easiest way to disable the anti-dive is to replace the single banjo bolt on the anti-dive unit with a regular bolt, use the single banjo bolt in place of the double on the caliper, and toss the extra brake line.

That sounds the most straight forward, however I lose that OEM look :shock:.

In order to keep the line, I have to keep the same banjo and bleeder else it will never bleed. More complicated to get that OEM look .

I did buy a piece of brass 1/32" plate and some gasket material to block off the oil passage from fork bottom to the anti dive unit. I then keep the guts in a plastic baggy rather than rusting in the anti dive unit.

Mark: You do disable the compression increase caused by the anti-dive, but the brake fluid side still sees the extra hosing and fluid. When I went to braided SS lines, I simply used a 2 line setup and blocked off the anti-dive with a blind banjo bolt. Better lever feel and easier bleeding all in one change.

To close and grind, I heated the cut end with a torch and then pushed it onto the next coil. When it cooled, I ground it flat. You will never get that end flat with a hammer without heat as well.

Thanks for taking the time to explain that. I was sorta guessing that but you laid that to rest.

Joe: This was off the top of my head, that's why I put the '?' after the setting. I am now back at whatever the instructions say to use for normal street use. I think I was at the track setting before.

OK sounds like I should do just what Mark said in the first place: leave it at 2 turns 8-[.

Thanks you guys that saved me a whole lot of time.

Posplayr

[Joe Nardy]

Okay, I got the GS back together and went for a short spin. The front is definitely softer and more compliant but certainly not mushy. It soaks up bumps noticeably better and there's a bit more dive under braking but it's nowhere near bottoming out. I'd still call it a sporty firm ride. If you like a softer ride you might want to back off the damping screw a bit more or try a lighter oil. For my 225 lbs. and riding style I think it is going to be pretty nice. This is just an observation from a quick ride but it is definitely an improvement over where I was.

Thanks,
Joe

[posplayr]

Ok Joe

So in rereading your posts, you have an 83 GS1100ED with Progressive springs and the Racetech emulators (my same setup :-D).

You have:
* the emulators set back to factory stock (two turns)
* 10 weight oil

So the questions are:
* IS the above correct?
* How much did you cut from your springs or add spacers?
* Where do you have the preload adjustment on the fork?

So it sounds like it is a nice (firm) street ride, but not really race setup for your 225 lbs. At my 200 lbs, the same settings would probably be a little firmer but maybe a little more sporty. :-D

P.S. I think I have my anti-dives sorted out and will post what I did a little later. I'm planning on making a lot of progress this weekend.

Posplayr

[Joe Nardy]

So in rereading your posts, you have an 83 GS1100ED with Progressive springs and the Racetech emulators (my same setup :-D).

You have:
* the emulators set back to factory stock (two turns)
* 10 weight oil

So the questions are:
* IS the above correct?
* How much did you cut from your springs or add spacers?
* Where do you have the preload adjustment on the fork?

So it sounds like it is a nice (firm) street ride, but not really race setup for your 225 lbs. At my 200 lbs, the same settings would probably be a little firmer but maybe a little more sporty. :-D

P.S. I think I have my anti-dives sorted out and will post what I did a little later. I'm planning on making a lot of progress this weekend.

Posplayr

To the best of my knowledge the above settings are correct. I'm not the best at documenting my settings and have a very poor memory. I know I originally tried the settings recommended for track duty and the Race Tech site recommended 20 weight oil. I believe I backed the emulators down to the street setting, maybe just a bit firmer. I am positive I am using Motorex 10 weight oil.

I did not cut anything from my springs and do not use any spacers. The preload adjusters are at their lightest setting.

Thanks,
Joe