36mm Mikuni Flatslides vs. Stock CV Carbs

[posplayr]

Hey Ray Merry X-mas

So how does the RS compare to the Slingshot CV flatslide?
Midrange, Top-end, HP gain, on-off control?

From our prior discussion you recommeded the slingshot carbs over the stock CV's (even the 1150 36mm). They seem fine on the 86 GSXR 1100.

Pos

[jwhelan65]

The only thing I agree with you here Jeff is the fuel mileage. Yes, you need learn to be a little smoother with your throttle hand but that will only make you a better rider anyway. Merry Christmas everyone! Ray

I agree Ray, my daily rider is an 06 FZ1... 140 hp, 5 valve per cylinder,fuel injected, yadda yadda...it has an extremely snatchy throttle...Im thinkin flatslides can't compare... so what do you think? Im on the fence with this one. worth the money? not worried about learning to manage them after there installed..

[rapidray]

I don't run stock carbs on ANY of my bikes as I like the power. I know how to deal with everything else. For the money & ease of install, carbs are the best bag for the buck! Ray.

[BlackStar]

I agree Ray, my daily rider is an 06 FZ1... 140 hp, 5 valve per cylinder,fuel injected, yadda yadda...it has an extremely snatchy throttle...Im thinkin flatslides can't compare... so what do you think? Im on the fence with this one. worth the money? not worried about learning to manage them after there installed..

I ride an 07 FZ1, so I can agree on that, but Iv'e gotten quite used to it. The RS34's are not nearly as "Snatchy" as the FZ1. And I do like the sound that the "clattering quartet" makes at certain throttle openings.

[trippivot]

I do not identify withe the term "snatchy" help me out here please.

I know the F.I. bikes have a noticeable time delay from throttle input and when the power pulls through the drive train.

the mechanical slides response are sharp and aggressive above half throttle-and 3500 rpm but usually falls on it's face just off idle unless you are throttle jacking and slipping the clutch keeping the revs up.


the CV's are smooth and even and pull in a linear fashion from idle to redline. mid cruise to W.O.T. is much slower than mech slides but smoother than F.I.

and lord knows I have had 20 MPG thanks to my accelerator pump.

48mpg is the best on CVs' with pods

I made the mistake traveling across country on a KZ race / street legal beast getting 22 MPG on a 3.5 gallon tank. Gallup to Flagstaff AARRRGGGGHHH!! 80-85 miles on a tank of fuel will have you 20-30 miles short in a lot of places. (carry fuel)

[Mark M]

I know the F.I. bikes have a noticeable time delay from throttle input and when the power pulls through the drive train.

I don't know what EFI bikes you have ridden to get that impression. All the ones I have ridden have been perhaps a touch TOO sensitive to small throttle movements and can be hard to smoothly cruise with at small thottle openings and light loads. The newer bikes are much better at this, the first EFI sport bikes were annoyingly touchy on the throttle.

Mark

[TheCafeKid]

I don't know what EFI bikes you have ridden to get that impression. All the ones I have ridden have been perhaps a touch TOO sensitive to small throttle movements and can be hard to smoothly cruise with at small thottle openings and light loads. The newer bikes are much better at this, the first EFI sport bikes were annoyingly touchy on the throttle.

Mark

This is likely helped with the use of modern slipper clutches on todays sportbikes.

Tripp, i think the term "snatchy" they are using is meaning "twitchy" To me anyway. And I understand what they are saying. CVs are very smooth thru the entire powerband, moreso if you have them jetted and the needles shimed perfectly. I played around with simply shimming the needles on my GS1100G, and it made a MASSIVE difference, not only in power (no "flat spots" in transitional stages) but it made the bike respond ALOT quicker than stock when in the needle stages. So much so that i actually had to go back in and add another shim, because the bike was "jumping" at throttle, and i was afraid of tearing up the rear end on it. These were also otherwise stock carbs, stock airbox and stock pipes. I can only imagine what they would have been capable of with a set of pods and a pipe on it.
On my 82 GS11/GSXR/Bandit project, eventually i will attempt using some simple mods, (of course later i plan on having an 1166 in it) but for starters i will use 1150 cams, degreeable sprockets, and BS36SS carbs. I will like to see how that helps out vs stock, as its probably an under $300 set of mods, carbs, cams, and all..

[80GS1000]

This is likely helped with the use of modern slipper clutches on todays sportbikes.

Sorry about the thread-jack but on the subject of slipper clutches....

Eh, not so much. The slipper clutch on modern sportbikes only helps prevent wheel hop from engine braking on heavy deceleration. They help match engine speed with wheel speed. They're mostly a track tool, not needed so much on the street.

Imagine this: You're coming into turn 5 at the track on your R6 or GSXR 600, which is a 60 MPH hairpin at the end of a long straight, WOT in 6th at 160+ MPH. On a bike equipped with a slipper at your braking marker you squeeze the front brake, pull in the clutch, bang down 3 gears, and then release the clutch smoothly but quickly and trailbrake to the apex with zero wheel hop and a minimum of rear tire snaking. On a bike without a slipper, you have to downshift at a much lower speed and use a great deal more finesse to prevent wheel hop. Generally speaking, a slipper lets you downshift later and deeper into the corner so lap times are faster.

Example here on my 06 GSXR 750 at about the 2:00 mark, need to drop from about 140 to 85 MPH for turn 1 in a hurry while downshifting a gear. On a bike with no slipper downshifting that fast may have led to some drama.

[trippivot]

I have a ultra sensitive throttle hand.

snatchy ?? -- from someone who used it as a description??



FYI mark M I am a MMI grad - 95 suzuki yamaha honda water craft snowmobile hi performance dyno room training too. ok I have a solid foundation on the physics.

started at dealership entry level honda moved to kawasaki dealer.\
got picked up by Kawasaki USA. that was after my outstanding tunning /warranty work on the Vulcan 1500 "D" classic introduction(1996). In 1999 the FI models began to hit the sales floors. I - we modified these at the dealership and paved the way for Thunder MFG. products. Mr Dave Rollins is in conjunction with Kawasaki USA producing products that do not void warranties. After that I worked on a factory jet ski team . ever heard of a ultra 150?? 900 pounds of thrust stock. FI integrated in the ignition system.. ok

I am now at a performance shop in the mid west. My fuel injected experience started with the old GPZ 1100 back in the late 80s' and now on the the modern sport bikes.
R1 GSXR 96 and on FI zx12 zx14 goldwing Vulcan CBR VFR

these are just a few examples. I do have extensive hours repairing/riding/tuning modern sport bikes, cruisers , touring, rats. .

how many Different bikes do you ride on a weekly basis? (in season)

ok I know I ride more than normal people not in the motorcycle business.


the slipper clutches are for beginners. preventing compression braking that slides the tire . traction is the objective-not losing it.
down shift and the rear tire is spinning faster than the clutch basket the clutch slips in a reverse fashion.

[BlackStar]

The "Snatchy" that I'm familiar with is abruptness from closed throttle (in fuel cut mode) back to any throttle opening. Seems to be worse at lower speeds. Many FI bikes cut fuel completely when the throttle is cosed on decell. When the fuel is re-introduced sudenly you get the snatch. People have problems with this during low speed turns, like when they downshift and re-apply throttle while they are turning. The fuel is cut to reduce emissions. My FZ1 has this as does my Roadstar Warrior. There are companies out there that make FCE boxes (fuel cut eliminator) for some FI bikes.
Iv'e gotten used to it, so it doesn't bother me anymore.
My Yamaha Grizzly quad is carburated and has a fuel cut circuit. The decell can take you by surprise when you let off the throttle at speed.

[trippivot]

ok, well enough. I get the description as you have described it-- cause and effect.

thank you .

[Mark M]

I am now at a performance shop in the mid west. My fuel injected experience started with the old GPZ 1100 back in the late 80s' and now on the the modern sport bikes.

<snip>

the slipper clutches are for beginners.

So you have lots of experience with EFI sport bikes, and you feel like there is a lag from rolling on and the power hitting the wheel? I have never felt a carb work as immediately and smoothly as EFI when it is working well. I guess we just have different impressions of the same things.

I wouldn't say slipper clutches are for beginners. They are really just a way to reduce rider workload under pressure. Which could be a beginner or a factory pro running at lap record speeds. It just takes away one more thing for the rider to deal with when he is overloaded and trying to cope with multiple problems at the same time.

Mark

[trippivot]

Can you tell if it is intake or another engine control effecting the power feel during specific throttle open and closing.


the ignition control does a few things -depending on specific system- open loop, closed loop. ignition integrated 2 channel 3 etc.

now what you are feeling is not exactly fuel and air charge "snatching" on-off-on again like a fuel cut on decel into a partial open throttle jab.

that is ignition hitting at a different time. most of us are used to a centrifugal mechanical advance. some of us have digital ignition advance pre set and pre programed non curve alterable.

these newer systems move it all over the place at weird times. I think that creates a "feel" that is unnatural to some and/or they just get used to it like black star had described.

knowing what you are feeling is good, knowing the how and the why takes research.

Now most of all= being able to separate what is going on between your legs and between your ears is not an easy task.


flat slides are BOSS .

[Mark M]

Now most of all= being able to separate what is going on between your legs and between your ears is not an easy task.

So true! And it can be really hard to keep the biases between the ears from affecting everything else.

I never did use the term "snatching", that was someone else.

Whether it is the ignition or EFI, I would just say that many EFI bikes seem extremely sensitive to small throttle changes when running on light loads and small throttle openings. They have gotten much better in recent years. A buddy had an F4i that was very touchy while my 06 GSXR1K is very nice and not at all touchy. My 08 RMZ450 is superb coming off idle and puts any FCR carb I have tried to shame. Of course, that is a race bike only, so the light load touchiness is not at all relevant because it never sees that condition.

Mark

[trippivot]

I am just trying to help...guess I deserve to get bit....

Mark M it appears to me you know enough to answer your own questions.

so lead on wise master, enlighten us here.