WTF??? Pilot jet change causes major issue..

[Guest]

Set Up: 83 GS1100ES SuperTrapp header/can combo, 5 discs installed. KN Pod filters
Main jet @ 135
Adjustable (not DJ needles, but adjustable) at 4th clip from the bottom
pilot 47.5 (started at 45, read that it was lean, tried one step up, and the following happened)
Float settings at 22.4mm
Screw settings Tried anything from 1/2 turn to 4 turns and...

Well after going over the Factory Pro step by step tuning guide i surmised that my pilot jets seemed to be one step too small at the stock setting. The screws had no effect over idle, and it seemed to surge as if lean thru 0-1/8 turn on the throttle, signifying to me that they were indeed lean, along with the popping on decel. Well, today i tried some freshly cleaned 47.5 pilots (45 is stock) and the bike was having no part of them. It simply would NOT idle. No matter the screw setting, if you took it off choke the bike would flutter and die. I removed the carbs and the boots were sopping wet with gas. Evidently it was simply flooding it out? But would a one step increase really cause this much of a problem? Dropped back to the 45s and it idles, but still acts lean.. Do i actually need to step down on the main and its drawing too much thru it? I dont think that is possible but im no carb genius either... Float levels too rich STILL?? anyone have any ideas? Help or info would be greatly greatly appreciated!


TCK

[rosco15]

If it's surging just getting on the gas then it's the needle you need to raise up a bit. The pilot is just at idle.

[TheCafeKid]

If it's surging just getting on the gas then it's the needle you need to raise up a bit. The pilot is just at idle.

It wont even idle, thats the problem. Its simply too rich on the pilot, or seemingly so. It flutters, bogs, then croaks off choke. The boots were soaking wet with gas when i pulled the carbs to take those 47's out and put the 45s back in, and it idled fine. Just doesnt make sense to me is all.

[Bribird]

I would think the pilots should be fine. At idle..even with pods...the butterflies are closed and the air flow is probably pretty close to stock..not exact...but close enough not to change the pilot jets.

Maybe its the taper of the needles that is causing you problems. I did not pay too close attention to the dynojet needles when I did it to my bike, but have heard others talk about the taper difference with dj needles.

Also if your mixture screws seem to do no change when turned...I would think vacuum leak or clogged passage(s) in the carbs. Do you have a color tune plug..to verify that the mixture screws do nothing?

[TheCafeKid]

I would think the pilots should be fine. At idle..even with pods...the butterflies are closed and the air flow is probably pretty close to stock..not exact...but close enough not to change the pilot jets.

Maybe its the taper of the needles that is causing you problems. I did not pay too close attention to the dynojet needles when I did it to my bike, but have heard others talk about the taper difference with dj needles.

Also if your mixture screws seem to do no change when turned...I would think vacuum leak or clogged passage(s) in the carbs. Do you have a color tune plug..to verify that the mixture screws do nothing?

Well the needles that Im running ARENT Dynojet needles, they ARE adjustable, even moreso than DJ's as i have 6 clips instead of DJs 5 clip positions. The tapper isnt as extreme either. I have a set of DJ needles, but my jets arent Dynojet, not that it matters i suppose. The bike runs FAIRLY well as it stands now, I am just trying to work all the lil crap spots out of it that annoy the ever loving crap out of me. Plus, with the plugs showing slightly lean at certain throttle positions, I worry about burning something up when attacking the twisties at BC or especially WV where I will be doing alot of climbing and the bike will see those mid to upper RPMs more sustained. The problem that im experiencing is popping on decel, surging in the pilot circuit, and the adjustment screws do nothing to help that with the 45s in there. I tried these 47.5s and the bike wont even idle. Its like its NOT getting gas, but its quite clear that it is when you pull the carbs off, as the boots are dripping with gas. The bike will idle just fine on the 45s, and its even really rideable with the set up, its just a touch lean according to the plugs, even though by all rights it should be a tad rich above the pilot circuit with that 135 main in there. Something that i just spoke to Chef about on the phone however: the bike that i have, an 82 1100E drag bike that i pulled these 47.5s out of, could have very well had those pilots drilled. Its possible. So, I am going to order a set of NEW 47.5s, and thanks to Bill i have a set of 138 DJ mains coming. I have a spare set of BS34s so I will set them up with the DJ 138s, Dj needles, and the 47.5s and put them on the bike and see if thats better. If not, i will put the other carbs back on untill I get back from BC and WV, and then figure it all out later....Time is just my issue at the moment..

[Bribird]

Very cool kid, let is know what the outcome of the new pilot jets are. Have you compared the 45 and the 47.5 jets to see that visually the 47.5's are a lot bigger. If the 47.5's were drilled they probably went a few sizes bigger. From a 45 to a 47.5...they will almost look like the same hole size.


My DJ needles have 6 clip positions...must be a 650 thing...?


You going to WVa for the rally?...is it that time already? BC....british columbia??

good luck with it

[TheCafeKid]

Very cool kid, let is know what the outcome of the new pilot jets are. Have you compared the 45 and the 47.5 jets to see that visually the 47.5's are a lot bigger. If the 47.5's were drilled they probably went a few sizes bigger. From a 45 to a 47.5...they will almost look like the same hole size.


My DJ needles have 6 clip positions...must be a 650 thing...?


You going to WVa for the rally?...is it that time already? BC....british columbia??

good luck with it

No the BC rally is Brown County, Indiana, and the WV rally THIS month is actually a GoldWing Rally that I tag along on with Steve and his wife from the board here. He has a wing, but his wife and sons have GSs, WV is gorgeous, and the best roads ive ever riden so I will go any chance I can get

As far as these "DJ" needles go, I must say that I am ASSUMING that they are DJ needles because they LOOK exactly LIKE them, only they only have 5 settings. They could be something else i suppose, because what ever make they were marked with has been rubbed off of all of them, but they tapper exactly like the DJs and they look identical. Either way, they're adjustable, so thats a plus..

[Bribird]

very cool man, well have fun out in Wva and brown county!!

Hopefully you get your jetting figured out before then. Good luck

[srsupertrap]

Sounds like you are on the right track and eliminating all the variables, if you have a magnifying glass or an inspection lamp at home you should be able to tell if someone drilled those pilot jets. My one useful comment is about the SuperTrapp header/can combo. I am pretty sure the stock recommendation setup was 7 or 8 discs installed. Since you have "opened it up" you could easily double the amount of discs in the can to 15 by using larger bolts. I have the old style SuperTrapp header with the single bolt muffler and I use 20 discs and the noise level is quite tolerable except for midnight tuning sessions.

[TheCafeKid]

I actually HAD 13 discs in it when i bought it, it was just a bit droning when on long trips at speeds where the wind noise didnt drown it out. Im still searching for the BEST tone/disc combo...have any suggestions? Also, how many discs can you add/remove before its starts messing with the back pressure so much that you have to adjust jetting, if at all? And, since we're on the subject, is the inner liner removable, and does it have packing in it that could need replaced? I love the pipe, just unfortunately dont know that much about this particular design.

[blowerbike]

to many problems your having josh...
what style pilots are you using?
solid or w/ bleed holes?
i believe you should have solid's in your carbs...if you have the ones w/ bleed holes....thats bad news and it will never work properly.
(im going off memory/ its one or the other).
dj says to use a 100% stock pilot circut and the carbs must be in good working stock order.
i have what ever you need right here to barrow, i dont want to sell anything but i will lone you what you need.
a stock exhaust has 2 pipes...the supertrap w/ 5 disc. is more restrictive IMO than a factory system.
run 7 or 8 disc. anyways..
***-***-**** cell.
im up till midnight.
p.s.
i have never changed the pilots on 1100/1150 suzuki's when installing a dj kit.(i have a box full of dj instruction books which means ive done more than one kit).

[srsupertrap]

The SuperTrapp 4 into 1's just have a mechanical baffle shoved into the can, no packing no nothing to replace. When introduced they advertised/stated you could tune the flow with additional discs, I have found that to be a crock. When I was running rich on the pilot circuit adding a bunch of discs didn't cure the symptom or make it run noticeable leaner. The same probably hold true for yours but adding discs will increase the volume of the muffler and does add to the noise level? When I remove all the discs from the muffler I still have that one disc staring at me which is part of the baffle. That one disc limits the flow regardless of how many discs are installed.

The optimium noise level is up to you, if you are heading out on the big trip noise will definitely wear on you day after day in the saddle. That's when Goldwings start making more sense . . .

[paco13]

I was thinking the same thing as BLOWERBIKE concerning the pilot jet style.
Also if you have been switching carbs around, make sure the air jets are the stock size. Some bikes with the same mm carbs used diff. air jets.

[kyscootertrash]

Needles

Could the needles be too high, or the taper be wrong, letting the mains flow a little bit at idle. With pods, 47.5 should be spot on, unless it's big bored and cammed. I'm running 36mm CV's with pod filters. When the motor was stock, Dyno-Jet needles with the clip second notch from top, 47.5 pilots, 140 mains, idle screws 2 to 3 turns out. With the needles 3 notches from top, it was too rich at lower throttle. Maybe try the Dyno-Jet needles.

[TheCafeKid]

Nope, that wasnt it. I pulled the needles and swapped them while leaving the 47.5s in there, it didnt matter. Its the DESIGN of the 47.5s My 45s have no aireator holes in them, the 47.5s do...