carb to fuel injection Builders Log

[ArttuH]

[You did one hell of a fine job! Where did you get such a small megasquirt box?!?!? is it the micro squirt?? The megasquirt 1 there selling on DIY web site are over 7 inches long (unless I want to get a micro squirt that costs 460$ )

Thanks!

The box is my own design. Actually there are two versions of them in the pictures. Older one in aluminium colored box contains just basic Megasquirt functionality. Later one seen on the turbo page (black box) has all kind additional features supported by extra-code. Like two ignition drivers, knock and EGT sensor interfaces, some power outputs and so on.

Yes, the original Megasquirt box is rather large to fit in a bike. And the connectors are not too reliable in wet environment.

[beingblueeyes]

Thanks!

The box is my own design. Actually there are two versions of them in the pictures. Older one in aluminium colored box contains just basic Megasquirt functionality. Later one seen on the turbo page (black box) has all kind additional features supported by extra-code. Like two ignition drivers, knock and EGT sensor interfaces, some power outputs and so on.

Yes, the original Megasquirt box is rather large to fit in a bike. And the connectors are not too reliable in wet environment.

do you sell them?
also dose anyone know the output of a stock 550 stator?

[Old Colt]

I myself would defiantly NOT use that Walbro pump you are thinking of.
You will need about 50LPH and the Wabros are very inefficient as far as power consumption to start with. The KZ pumps mentioned will be more than adequate.
As for the Megasquirt I would highly recommend the MS2 processor, it is much more stable. I have seen many resets with the MS1 many of which will make you walk home.

The TB adaptors should not be an issue but you would be well served to pull the head and port it.
Here are the adaptors on my 550 for the 29mm smoothbores. These were converted when the bike was new back in 79.

Granted it is a much different setup from what you are doing but the bike just comes alive when you let it breath.

[beingblueeyes]

I myself would defiantly NOT use that Walbro pump you are thinking of.
You will need about 50LPH and the Wabros are very inefficient as far as power consumption to start with. The KZ pumps mentioned will be more than adequate.
As for the Megasquirt I would highly recommend the MS2 processor, it is much more stable. I have seen many resets with the MS1 many of which will make you walk home.

The TB adaptors should not be an issue but you would be well served to pull the head and port it.
Here are the adaptors on my 550 for the 29mm smoothbores. These were converted when the bike was new back in 79.

Granted it is a much different setup from what you are doing but the bike just comes alive when you let it breath.

well walking home is never fun (I’ve never walked home but i have walked several miles down the side of a highway to a gas station to call a wrecker 3 times) and looking at it that way maybe the megasquirt 2 is worth the extra money, with that later on I can upgrade and control the spark as well. tell me more about what cade the MS1 reset? right now i am geting ready to order my megasquirt but i still dont know what one i want to go with. I would port the head but this is just going to be a test head after I get it running the way I want I want to do a head and piston swap to a 4 valve head.

I do need a very very fast answer. Would this fuel pump work?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1993-...Q5fAccessoriesZX7R ELECTRIC FUEL PUMP

[Old Colt]

If I am correct the 93 ZX7 is a carbureted bike, that would be a low pressure pump.

I will get more answers to you in the morning.

[beingblueeyes]

dam. well thanks for getting back to me, I would have felt like a real tard if I had gotten it and then installed it and tried to use it with EFI...

[ArttuH]

do you sell them?
also dose anyone know the output of a stock 550 stator?

Yes and no I have built few units for my friends but I don't produce and sell them in large scale. So if you really want one we can discuss about it

Sorry, no idea about the 550 stator. For comparison my 1100 outputs 250W and it's enough for all standard lights, a pump that draws about 4.5A and heated wideband lambda sensor. But then it's pretty much on the edge. For example changing the headlight bulb to 100W version is now too much.

And about reliability of the MS1. Based on my experiences they are reliable if built and installed properly. Of course you can get all kind weird symptoms if there are glitches in installation but I don't think that MS2 would be any better in this sense. Anyhow, MS2 provides some benefits so it's not bad choice either. Or you can always start with MS1 and upgrade it later to MS2 just by replacing the processor.

[duaneage]

Most GS bikes only have 250 to 280 watts of power from the stator. I could also add the stock RR is not a beefy unit, although I offer a Honda kit that can handle 450 watts, the stator is not going to tolerate more than 20 amps total draw. The bikes usually draw 5-12 amps depending on what is going on.

You need to consider the current of the fuel pump as well. Motors have high initial starting current but in operation draw a little less. Add in the injectors and any electronics and you are starting to eat a lot more.

One way to conserve power for these add ons is to go LED for dash lights, turnsignals, and brake lights. You can recover about 15 watts with dash lights and maybe another 40 with turnsignals and the brake. It's a game of save every watt. I've never done a comprehensive tally of what all that eats but I am sure it is a lot. The blinker seems to dim the lights at idle, that kind of voltage sway would play hell with the injectors.

The only other alternative is some kind of aux power source. Now we are getting into real engineering.

[beingblueeyes]

For comparison my 1100 outputs 250W and it's enough for all standard lights, a pump that draws about 4.5A and heated wideband lambda sensor. But then it's pretty much on the edge. For example changing the headlight bulb to 100W version is now too much.

And about reliability of the MS1. Based on my experiences they are reliable if built and installed properly. Of course you can get all kind weird symptoms if there are glitches in installation but I don't think that MS2 would be any better in this sense. Anyhow, MS2 provides some benefits so it's not bad choice either. Or you can always start with MS1 and upgrade it later to MS2 just by replacing the processor.

i emailed DIYautotune last night
me: hi. fast question regarding what comes with the assembled megasquirt 2 pcb3.57 and microsquart units? do both of them come with the megasquirt pigtails (wiring harness)? also what are the differences between the two? dose the microsquart still have the ability to tune in 12x12 and control the ign.?
DIYatutotune: The Microsquirt comes with a 30" long harness; the Megasquirt comes with a solder type DB37 and DB15 connector but a true harness is sold separately.
The Microsquirt has two ignition outputs while the MS2 has one standard ignition output that can be expanded to up to six using the Extra code. The MS2 has the ability to drive a stepper IAC and more low impedance injectors (the Microsquirt is limited to two low impedance or eight high impedance injectors; I've seen full sized MS2s used with as many as sixteen injectors). Both use 12 x 12 tables and the same firmware. Let me know if you have any questions.
me: thanks for getting back to me so fast. One more question dose the MS2 and microsquirt have the same processor?
DIYatutotune: Yes, the processor is the same between the two units.




from that it would be cheaper to get the microsquit instead of getting the megasquirt 2 and then buying the pigtail for it and then the tuning cable and the microsquirt is also smaller. why type of ign. dose our bikes use? Dose megasquirt support it? or would I need to pick up a dyna ign. to have convert the ign signal?

Most GS bikes only have 250 to 280 watts of power from the stator. I could also add the stock RR is not a beefy unit, although I offer a Honda kit that can handle 450 watts, the stator is not going to tolerate more than 20 amps total draw. The bikes usually draw 5-12 amps depending on what is going on.

You need to consider the current of the fuel pump as well. Motors have high initial starting current but in operation draw a little less. Add in the injectors and any electronics and you are starting to eat a lot more.

One way to conserve power for these add ons is to go LED for dash lights, turnsignals, and brake lights. You can recover about 15 watts with dash lights and maybe another 40 with turnsignals and the brake. It's a game of save every watt. I've never done a comprehensive tally of what all that eats but I am sure it is a lot. The blinker seems to dim the lights at idle, that kind of voltage sway would play hell with the injectors.

The only other alternative is some kind of aux power source. Now we are getting into real engineering.

good suggestions about the light bulbs, I found a stator on ebay that increases output about 20% so even if it increases output only 15% and i use the lowest valve of 250 watts oem stator output I still end up with 287.5 watts and using the equation 12 watts/12 volts = 1 amp (at a fixed 12 volt even thought when charging the battery will be around 14 volts) I end up with 23.958 useable amps at 12 volts. With that and the light bulb trick I think I will have enough. What about converting the head light to H.I.D? Most only need 3.1 amps to work.

[ArttuH]

rom that it would be cheaper to get the microsquit instead of getting the megasquirt 2 and then buying the pigtail for it and then the tuning cable and the microsquirt is also smaller. why type of ign. dose[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana] our bikes use? Dose megasquirt support it? or would I need to pick up a dyna ign. to have convert the ign signal?

Yep, I would prefer Microsquirt over standard MS2 box. The most significant benefits are smaller size, sealed case and connector, two VR sensor inputs for crank sensors and two coil drivers. So with it you can make full injection and ignition control for four cylinder engine without any modifications.

The stock ignition is wasted spark ignition with two coils and dual VR pickups. For ignition you have two options with the Microsquirt. You can leave stock ignition to handle spark side and take RPM signal for the Microsquirt from the coil. Or you can use the Microsquirt to control spark as well. It should work with stock coils and VR pickups. You just need to lock the mechanical advancer. I would recommend to start with fuel control only. It's much simpler to get it running when you don't need to troubleshoot both sides at the same time.

Edit: And yes, HID conversion for the head light will save some power, 10-20W depending on the original bulb.

[beingblueeyes]

Yep, I would prefer Microsquirt over standard MS2 box. The most significant benefits are smaller size, sealed case and connector, two VR sensor inputs for crank sensors and two coil drivers. So with it you can make full injection and ignition control for four cylinder engine without any modifications.

The stock ignition is wasted spark ignition with two coils and dual VR pickups. For ignition you have two options with the Microsquirt. You can leave stock ignition to handle spark side and take RPM signal for the Microsquirt from the coil. Or you can use the Microsquirt to control spark as well. It should work with stock coils and VR pickups. You just need to lock the mechanical advancer. I would recommend to start with fuel control only. It's much simpler to get it running when you don't need to troubleshoot both sides at the same time.

Edit: And yes, HID conversion for the head light will save some power, 10-20W depending on the original bulb.

Ok I’m going to go with the microsquirt to control the fuel (and the spark down the line as suggested) i dont think im going to jump on all lights just yet, but i will after i get the bike going.

For the fuel pump side I just picked up a dented Honda CBR 600rr tank with fuel pump and gas cap and I will try to mate the CBR in tank pump with the gs tank

[beingblueeyes]

just got the microsquirt
here is a link
going to go sit down

http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/microsquirt-engine-management-system-p-131.html

[Old Colt]

Sorry for not getting back on for a few days to answer what I started. The Microsqirt will do you well. In some ways it is a git restricting since the D&G code is no where as nice as the extra code but I hope they have the the Microsquirt sorted well enough now.
One part I did not get to answer but may be of value to others is about the processor resets. This has to do with how well the processor deals with electrical noise. The newer processor is just much better with this. Having an engine shut down when you use the turn signals sucks.

When the time comes for ignition pickups you can consider the stock 1980 and newer electronic units to trigger the MS. Remove the mechanical advance and lock the rotor to about 70° and setup the timing in the MS. Dyn products are a great way to go also.

You may consider a wideband unit to let you see what is happening. The most cost effective and stable units I have found are from Techedge, Their 2J1 unit is great, http://wbo2.com/2j/default.htm

[beingblueeyes]

Sorry for not getting back on for a few days to answer what I started. The Microsqirt will do you well. In some ways it is a git restricting since the D&G code is no where as nice as the extra code but I hope they have the the Microsquirt sorted well enough now.
One part I did not get to answer but may be of value to others is about the processor resets. This has to do with how well the processor deals with electrical noise. The newer processor is just much better with this. Having an engine shut down when you use the turn signals sucks.

When the time comes for ignition pickups you can consider the stock 1980 and newer electronic units to trigger the MS. Remove the mechanical advance and lock the rotor to about 70° and setup the timing in the MS. Dyn products are a great way to go also.

You may consider a wideband unit to let you see what is happening. The most cost effective and stable units I have found are from Techedge, Their 2J1 unit is great, http://wbo2.com/2j/default.htm

Its cool old colt, that’s is precisely the info I needed about the processor resets. I can see how when using a blinker and it killing your motor could be annoying/bike asking to have the oil beat out of it. Setting the microsquirt to run the bike ign. sounds much easier then I would ever guess. That seems like a really good wideband o2 for the money but I already have a zeitronix unit (hade it for 3 years about and still love it) if it comes down to me wanting one of the 550 all the time I will be buying that one.

Off subject: old colt it checked out your web page and took a gander at your busa powered car and let me say Sr. that is one fine machine you built yourself. I’m impressed about a motorcycle motor in something like that but even more taken back by your suspension work. Do you have plans of putting tags on it (along with lights ect.) and running it on the roads?

Just watched the movie "faster" and it was worth the time spent

I hate killing time for parts to show up

[Old Colt]

Thank you,
This Busa powered car is big fun and its biggest problem is that I can only run it at events.
But yes I have plans for a street car. The chassis is drawn and most details completed. I also have most components collected for the car. It will be a front engine car looking like some classic British cars, Lotus Elan, Elva Courier etc. Actually closest to the kit cars like the Fisher fury but with a much safer and stronger chassis. The car is designed to be powered with 4cylinder and V6 car engines as well as bike power and unlike the Lotus 7 derived kits mine is designed for 3-400HP as a base. That is in a 1000 to 1200 Lb street car. The car will be stupid fast and handle as well.

I have intentions of producing kits but may not have the funding or energy to achieve this. But the prototype will be a hoot.