Recommendations, boring, ballancing

[Mekanix]

Thanks platinum2


How much room should I make between the sleeve and case ?

The original had 7mm all around.

So far i have less than 1 all the way around.

How much will the sleeves expand with heat ?

I know the aluminum should expand more than the sleeves from when I removed and installed the sleeves in the block.


Also what should I do with the cylinder block. I was thinking of just sand blasting it and painting it but I could have it powder coated or ceramic coated.

[pete]

Thanks platinum2


How much room should I make between the sleeve and case ?

The original had 7mm all around.

So far i have less than 1 all the way around.

How much will the sleeves expand with heat ?

I know the aluminum should expand more than the sleeves from when I removed and installed the sleeves in the block.


Also what should I do with the cylinder block. I was thinking of just sand blasting it and painting it but I could have it powder coated or ceramic coated.

Man I'm following this and am completely lost on what needs to be done, but enjoying every minute of it

Given what you're doing, my suggestion would be to keep the cases bare... I had my head and cylinders wet blasted, which is a non-abrasive method of blasting so doesn't affect any journals etc. and the finish is awesome. I didn't need to mask off a single thing.

It sort of seals the alloy so if you get an oil leak, it doesn't stain the engine and you can easily clean it off. Almost all the oil marks from when my Athena valve cover gasket was weeping constantly were real easy wash off with the first bath she got.

This is where I got mine done, I'm sure you could find somewhere there:

http://www.wetblasting.net/

Also, there is another similar technique that uses what are effectively little shards of glass as well, and that is different and will affect journals etc., so make sure it's the same process or you'll need to do lots of masking.

Here's why I reckon this way... before:



After:



Just my 2 cents anyway... possibly the only way I could be helpful on this build... haha

[platinum2]

wow less than 1mil? thats thin, i dunno man seems thin to me, the more compression you have the more the cyls will flex as well,i think wiseco sticks with 2 mil minimum not positive though
i had a cyl grab my new piston it was bored out 2 mil left i believe, but the skirt grabbed it when hot ,piston broke at the pin, it was broke in,1 season on it, i dont want to see anything like that happen to ya, mine was off road, but i had lots in it,i couldnt imagine yours,just something to think about
also if you coat the motor it will hold in heat, unless your going alky, but i doubt you want a alky motor to scoot around town all the time
your going all out thats for sure, but again i dont want to steer you wrong so think everything through make sure its something your happy with since its your bike

[Mekanix]

Well here is a to do list pete. Its about time I made one.

finish boring case
reassemble engine with just the crank timing chain and guides
install pistons
mock up the head with the right amount of spacing (washers )
(I'm going to use washers between the head and block to see inside the comp chamber to check for valve clearance)
check valve clearances
check valve timing
slot cam gears
set timing at 104:104
maybe increase valve relief in pistons if necessary
Disassemble engine
Order or make proper size base shim needed
Order oil sump gasket
Order clutch cover gasket
Order 2 emblems


In the mean time, while I'm waiting for gaskets to arrive I could:

Rebuild and inspect head and bearing journal for wear
check valve run-out
clean everything
lap valve seats
check bearing journals with plastigage
check crank bearings for wear and plastigage
check counter balance shaft bearings for the same
check transmission gears and forks for wear
Order bearings if needed


I riped a few gaskets during the dissassembly and called boulevard Suzuki.
Their prices were cheap but with shipping added on its cheaper to get it locally.



I can sand blast and ceramic cote the cylinder block just like I did the first time.

It looks like this:





The case is powder coated and doesn't need anything done to it. It still looks like this:

The base is powder coated and the top end is high heat ceramic coated.

wow less than 1mil? that's thin

lol I mean between the outside of the sleeve and the inside of the case

The sleeves were 77mm stock with 4.5mm of sidewall. I only bored to 78mm because I found the right pistons at the right price.



So far today and yesterday I didn't get much done.


But I did clean up my workspace and moved all the engine parts inside where I can clean and inspect everything and, take my time.


Oh and while at work I made an excel spreadsheet that lets me calculate what the compression ratio will be if I tweak the base shim.

I input things like

bore : 78mm
stroke 56mm
deck height 27mm
base gasket thickness 0.5mm
head gasket thickness 1.2mm
combustion chamber volume 14cc's
Every 1mm of shim adds 4cc''

and it spits out the compression ratio

It says I need 3.5mm of shimming to keep stock compression ratio of 10.5:1.

Its just a rough calculation. Once I have the numbers from measuring the volume of the combustion chamber with the piston all the way up and take into account the valve reliefs than its easy to tweak the formula to say what I really need for a shim.

[platinum2]

oh shouldnt matter then it wont get hot down there as it will on top, looks good

[Mekanix]

Great, I was a little worried about it expanding a bit and pushing against the case but I think I have enough meat taken out now that it shouldn't even touch when hot.

What I would really like to know is what the guys building the 11's do for clearance between the case and cylinder.



I started doing some cleaning and inspecting today.

Looks like I'm going to replace all the plain bearings in the bottom end. They show signs of wear and are just slightly out of spec.


I noticed something this time that I didn't when I rebuilt the engine last year.

I used a 450's head gasket and it has 5cc's more volume per cylinder than the 400's head gasket.

That made the compression ratio drop from 10.5:1 to 8.3:1. So the new cometic gasket is 78mm just so I don't have to do any extra calculations

[Mekanix]

Side note.

Doing some research while I'm working.

I've looked into valves and cam shafts for the 400 and 1100

gs40x

intake valve dia 23mm
exhaust valve dia 20mm
valve stem diameter 5.46mm
camshaft journal 22mm
lift and duration ??

gsx1100

intake valve dia 27mm
exhaust valve dia 23mm
valve stem diameter 5.46mm
camshaft journal 22mm
lift and duration, lots of possibilities
I'm not sure about the gear size and distance between lobes or if the tack gear is the same.



for anyone wanting to know more about how your 400 450 or 500 works, take a look at an 1100 manual. There is so much more information that applies.

[pete]

That's a good tip actually.

I had a glance in John's GS1100G manual he had at one time and he had all sorts of things in there like the signal generator output waveform etc. that none of my 450 manuals have including the factory reproduction one.

One thing with your ceramic coating and Platinum2 mentioned it as well... won't the ceramic coating keep the heat in?

I'm thinking this because my exhaust is ceramic coated and the outside is definitely cooler than it was with chrome, and the idea is to keep the heat in to help the gases escape faster... so will that not make the inside of the cylinders and head hotter?

Don't forget I know nothing, this is just a thought that entered my head

[Mekanix]

I'm thinking this because my exhaust is ceramic coated and the outside is definitely cooler than it was with chrome, and the idea is to keep the heat in to help the gases escape faster... so will that not make the inside of the cylinders and head hotter?

Yeah the manuals even go as far as explaining how transistors work


I was suggested by the powder coating company that I should use ceramic coating on the exhaust, cylinder head and barel's because normal powder coating would not withstand the heat.

I agree with you guys that It will retain the heat based on some research I just did with a few ceramic coatings websites.

One shows an exhaust header temperature treated and untreated with 120c in the difference.


So I'm going with a silicone based powder that will withstand the heat and look good while not holding the heat in.



Hey, how hot does this engine get anyways ?

[pete]

Cool, I thought it sounded odd ceramic coating the cylinders and head...

As for how hot these get, good question! I've wondered that myself but have no idea... I know it burns when I touch it

[Mekanix]

Cool,

As for how hot these get, good question! I've wondered that myself but have no idea... I know it burns when I touch it

lol I was thinking of adding a temp sensor for the head and oil just to see what its like.

[pete]

lol I was thinking of adding a temp sensor for the head and oil just to see what its like.

I contemplated that when I started using her every day in traffic, but then realised I had no idea how how it's supposed to get so might end up worrying about nothing... in your case it might be worthwhile though with all the mods.

[Mekanix]

Progress on block

hi, Here is what I've been up to.





No gaskets yet. Piston is 1.7mm above the head.




g

[pete]

Man those pistons are so shiny and new... can't wait to see her come together

[Mekanix]

I did some mockup measurements today

The stock piston is 53.8 mm tall with the wrist pin center 28mm from the bottom of the skirt, the sleeve is 98.5mm deep, at BDC the piston skirt extends past the bottom by 7.26mm

On the new setup the piston is 50.4mm tall with the wrist pin center 23mm from the bottom of the skirt, the sleeve is 101.5mm deep, at BDC the piston skirt extends past the bottom by 2.26mm



How far can I shim the bottom before it becomes a problem ???

I need to make up 4 mm to get the comp ratio I want of 10-11:1.

1.2mm will be the head gasket. So I need 2.8 mm of shim.

That will make the bottom of the piston extend by 5mm instead of 2.2mm



How safe is it for the piston skirt to extend that much below the bore???