Why do modern bikes feel so precise?

[nastyjones]

Really?, enough already post whore...hope this isn't rude, but i just gotta say...
your commentary has nothing to do with "why do modern motorbikes feel so precise"
message received in your first post to this thread, even though it was right out of left field, I just assumed you were drunk or something.
I get it, you are not interested, go post in another thread..... bash a harley, contribute somehow, a joke or some humour even, either that or STFU

Wish there was a "like" button on this forum.

[John Kat]

Pardon my ignorance John (I'm still learning every day), but what are the white wheels from Posplayr? I've been reading a lot into first generation GSXR 18" mags, but thought they were the only "suitable" 18" mag wheel.

Rich, I've been learning along just like you
The first gen GSXR's wheels came out first with a 3X2 spoke pattern to be replaced on the 1988 model by a 3 spoke wheel.
All were 18" in diameter.
Beware that the 3X2 spoke wheels came first with a 15 mm spindle later replaced by a 17 mm spindle.
The 3 spoke wheel came with a 17 mm spindle but can be upgraded to a 20 mm spindle by changing the bearings ( not possible with the 3X2 wheels!)
The early wheels are very much sought after, in France at least, because the "classic" racers are allowed to use them and they must be the lightest wheels ever mass produced

[Big Rich]

Thank you sir!

I've been doing a lot of research lately into suspension and wheel upgrades for the smaller GS's. So I do appreciate your info!

[salty_monk]

Interesting. The RaceTech gold valves are supposed to give you that same digressive damping, just like the cartridge fork.

I disagree... All they do is split the two damping circuits so that they can be adjusted/tuned independently of each other.

If you take a look at the Ricor cartridge emulators they are more sophisticated & work much more like a cartridge fork (they have an internal shim stack instead of just a sprung blow off valve). They also require shim swapping to adjust - again the same as a cartridge fork.

The Racetech valves are definitely a step forward but not the same... My KLR with Ricor shocks front & rear feels more modern than the GS1000 with GS1100 fork/swinger, emulators & Works performance rear. Both are on bias ply tyres so it's not that. The KLR fork is 41mm not 37mm. They both have a fork brace.... The twinpot upgraded forks on the GS work better than the stock single twinpot on the KLR too so it's not that either. The main difference for me is the mono-shock rear end, you don't get the same sort of twisting motion when cornering hard, especially on the bumpy stuff.

My heavily modified 750ES felt a lot more modern, still not quite up to "modern bike" standards though.

I recently rode Mr Nardy's GS1100 (race techs & Ikon shocks) back to back with his Aprilia Shiver - night & day.

[John Kat]

I disagree... All they do is split the two damping circuits so that they can be adjusted/tuned independently of each other.

If you take a look at the Ricor cartridge emulators they are more sophisticated & work much more like a cartridge fork (they have an internal shim stack instead of just a sprung blow off valve). They also require shim swapping to adjust - again the same as a cartridge fork.

The Racetech valves are definitely a step forward but not the same... My KLR with Ricor shocks front & rear feels more modern than the GS1000 with GS1100 fork/swinger, emulators & Works performance rear. Both are on bias ply tyres so it's not that. The KLR fork is 41mm not 37mm. They both have a fork brace.... The twinpot upgraded forks on the GS work better than the stock single twinpot on the KLR too so it's not that either. The main difference for me is the mono-shock rear end, you don't get the same sort of twisting motion when cornering hard, especially on the bumpy stuff.

My heavily modified 750ES felt a lot more modern, still not quite up to "modern bike" standards though.

I recently rode Mr Nardy's GS1100 (race techs & Ikon shocks) back to back with his Aprilia Shiver - night & day.

Glad to read that you've come to the same conclusions about the cartridge forks.
I believe that the reason they perform so much better is based on the fact that there is a slow speed damping and a separate high speed damping circuit.
The slow speed is controlled by the adjustable needle and the high speed by the shim stack.
The shim circuit allows the wheels to absorb the potholes while the needle circuit controls the slow movements of the bike.
It's amusing to see people ( I do it too) pull the bike up and down on it's suspension and tell you that it's right or not
On a cartridge type bike it will definitely feel way overdamped compared to a conventional suspension but on the move if you put your hand on the fork stanchion you will feel it going up and down very quickly to absorb the bumps.
I haven't tried this on an USD fork for some reason

[boingk]

When I kickstart my Honda XR600R's 591cc single OHC 4c cylinder into action, I ride with brute torque and grossed, blunt actions with a nice rake and wheel diameter up front to take care of things. Its a 50 horsepower, 300 pound monster... and a nicely agricultural one at that. Pure grin machine.

The silky smooth - but somewhat reluctant - start of the GS850G trundles into life the DOHC 4cyl mill with a refined shaftdrive system and great everything in terms of engine characteristics; progressive lowend, flat torque curve through the midrange, and a surge of power to redline. She's comfortable, stable, reliable. Again, a large wheel and generous rake (by modern standards) up front keep her in check and the weight and springing make her feel responsive but tamed. Throw her into a corner, go through, get back on the throttle, get into the next one, keep on going. She's calm and collected and oh so smooth; you could ride her forever. The limit is within reach and feels almost effortless with a bit of experience. She might be a big 550lb bike but she certainly can put a grin on your face.

Flick forward to my 2000 model Honda VTR1000F (Superhawk to you Yanks ;D) and its a different kettle of fish.

She growls into action, reliant on the choke for the first minute or two lest the 48mm flatslides get out of sync with the two 500cc DOHC 4v cylinders and stall her. The ride out of the parking lot lets you know you're on a different era of bike - the clutch is precise and smooth and effortless, the brakes powerful and light, the riding position comfortable yet racy and functional. Everything works to one aim - sport riding. The choke off, engine warm and twisty backroads in your sights, you use the bikes brilliant systems to blast into and out of corners like no-ones business. Flick, ROAR, brake, repeat; the minimal rake, 17" wheels and modern suspension with an absolute minimum of both sprung and unsprung mass (460lb fuelled) make for a responsive, involved, communicative and absolutely breathtaking ride.

The one thing I don't like about the modern bike I own is that I always feel bettered by it - it gets the last laugh. You head into a corner faster than you think you can handle because it lets you do it... and then quietly whispers to you, afterward, that you shouldn't have chickened out - we could have made that one easily. You think you hear a laugh in the exhaust note... mocking you...

I like my old bikes because I can take them where they will go and perhaps maybe a tiny bit further. My new(ish) bike is great but always makes me feel that I'm wasting it. Perhaps I just need to ride it more, or perhaps I really am a pussy.

Either way, that's my take on the old vs new debate.

- boingk

[nastyjones]

Flick forward to my 2000 model Honda VTR1000F (Superhawk to you Yanks ;D) and its a different kettle of fish.

She growls into action, reliant on the choke for the first minute or two lest the 48mm flatslides get out of sync with the two 500cc DOHC 4v cylinders and stall her. The ride out of the parking lot lets you know you're on a different era of bike - the clutch is precise and smooth and effortless, the brakes powerful and light, the riding position comfortable yet racy and functional. Everything works to one aim - sport riding. The choke off, engine warm and twisty backroads in your sights, you use the bikes brilliant systems to blast into and out of corners like no-ones business. Flick, ROAR, brake, repeat; the minimal rake, 17" wheels and modern suspension with an absolute minimum of both sprung and unsprung mass (460lb fuelled) make for a responsive, involved, communicative and absolutely breathtaking ride.

The one thing I don't like about the modern bike I own is that I always feel bettered by it - it gets the last laugh. You head into a corner faster than you think you can handle because it lets you do it... and then quietly whispers to you, afterward, that you shouldn't have chickened out - we could have made that one easily. You think you hear a laugh in the exhaust note... mocking you...


I like the way you write Boingk. You put me in the saddle of the Superhawk, a bike I've always loved. My next bike, perhaps.

[John Kat]

Flick forward to my 2000 model Honda VTR1000F (Superhawk to you Yanks ;D) and its a different kettle of fish.

She growls into action, reliant on the choke for the first minute or two lest the 48mm flatslides get out of sync with the two 500cc DOHC 4v cylinders and stall her. The ride out of the parking lot lets you know you're on a different era of bike - the clutch is precise and smooth and effortless, the brakes powerful and light, the riding position comfortable yet racy and functional. Everything works to one aim - sport riding. The choke off, engine warm and twisty backroads in your sights, you use the bikes brilliant systems to blast into and out of corners like no-ones business. Flick, ROAR, brake, repeat; the minimal rake, 17" wheels and modern suspension with an absolute minimum of both sprung and unsprung mass (460lb fuelled) make for a responsive, involved, communicative and absolutely breathtaking ride.

The one thing I don't like about the modern bike I own is that I always feel bettered by it - it gets the last laugh. You head into a corner faster than you think you can handle because it lets you do it... and then quietly whispers to you, afterward, that you shouldn't have chickened out - we could have made that one easily. You think you hear a laugh in the exhaust note... mocking you...

I like my old bikes because I can take them where they will go and perhaps maybe a tiny bit further. My new(ish) bike is great but always makes me feel that I'm wasting it. Perhaps I just need to ride it more, or perhaps I really am a pussy.

Either way, that's my take on the old vs new debate.

- boingk

Fully agree with you: it's more difficult to feel the limit on the modern bikes specially when they come with the 190 wide rear tire...
Your description reminds me of my VTR SP1 an amazing twin until I discovered the Aprilia RSV 1000 Haga.
Most probably the best bike I ever owned

[tkent02]

Rode an Aprillia 1000, not sure which model. Tires made of glue. Couldn't come close to getting it to slip, not on corners, not with brakes or gas or anything. About six times the traction of a good GS.

[John Kat]

Rode an Aprillia 1000, not sure which model. Tires made of glue. Couldn't come close to getting it to slip, not on corners, not with brakes or gas or anything. About six times the traction of a good GS.

I remember when I rode into the Aprilia dealership with my Honda SP1 ( the bike Colin Edwards rode in those days) the sales rep said: " The SP1 is a very good bike but there is no harm in testing an RSV 1000"
When I got back, I asked him if I could trade in the Honda for the Aprilia...
I promised myself to never again buy a bike without riding it first
The following year Honda came out with an improved version: the SP2.
Apparently the frame had been made too stiff in some places???

[Dogma]

...
It's amusing to see people ( I do it too) pull the bike up and down on it's suspension and tell you that it's right or not...

I just saw this covered in the ARC1 class last weekend. You can check rebound damping that way, but not compression.

[boingk]

Cheers nastyjones and John Kat, she's a great ride indeed.

If you've always wanted one, Jones, definitely get a ride of one. They're a hoot! Only recommendation on my behalf is to go for the post 2000 models to steer clear of the dud camchain tensioner spring issue and also get the increased capacity tank (19L vs 16L).



Cheers - boingk

[tkent02]

I just saw this covered in the ARC1 class last weekend. You can check rebound damping that way, but not compression.

You can also tell if the forks slide smoothly or if they tend to stick.

[RichDesmond]

I just saw this covered in the ARC1 class last weekend. You can check rebound damping that way, but not compression.

You can check low speed compression, but not high speed.

[boingk]

Why not just ride the thing and see how it goes?

Or am I missing the point?

- boingk