EFI Gurus needed. dragbike efi swap

[Blower]

arttyh,
yes i feel the mechanical would have an advantage when using the nitro. but i dont plan on going 100% stanky. We have had good results in our dragster with 33%, this is still consider a light load in the fuel world. Also at 33% the stoich is pretty spot on to a pure MeOH tune. So if the EFI will flow enough for MeOH it should be fine to this percent.

And I think I might light some of the extra features available within the tuning software of MS to change the fuel flow with a keystroke, instead of trying to using mechanical means of leaning out the motor, along with RPM control. It really depends on the price of a simple mech VS efi system, I am conferring with the minds that tune nitro motors about a simple cheap effective mech system for the bike.

the big hurdle is mech is the fuel pump, it should be mechanical pump so I need some advice on anyone that has put an external belt system on one of these motors, maybe blower can chime in...

and i think i would put the dyna up for sale to fund the MS purchase if I go that way. dont see a need to keep both around.

Here are the drawings from the crankshaft extension and support bearing housing what I have in my bike:

[hotrods316]

yes, the mechanical can flow huge volumes of fuel. and the tuning is definately user involved. much of the racers have all the data acquisition that is required for efi but still rely on the mech. injection. I think mech would be cool and a simple system to layout, but the efi would be a more modern approach to solving the fuel issue.

the guy with nitro experience i am conferring with thought a efi system would be simple enough with the MS, he suggested a second injector row, 8 total, to get the big flow needed for a bigger boosted engine. he said something like a small electric pump to start the bike and then a mechanical pump to flow while running. not sure if this would be necessary, and two pumps would increase cost.

Also blower can you email me that pic in a bigger format, i downloaded it but it was in small size, my email is morgan.82@wright.edu

matt

ps. this is all secondary right now as i am trying to source parts to build a bulletproof engine to handle the load of nitro. which is slow going as of now, but hopefully it moves quicker here soon, talking to some gsr'ers about parts and local racers, but we just got more snow so the snails are still hibernating. lol

[ArttuH]

the guy with nitro experience i am conferring with thought a efi system would be simple enough with the MS, he suggested a second injector row, 8 total, to get the big flow needed for a bigger boosted engine. he said something like a small electric pump to start the bike and then a mechanical pump to flow while running. not sure if this would be necessary, and two pumps would increase cost.

You can get about 400-500hp from a 1000-1300cc engine with single set (4) of injectors. Above that it might be beneficial to add another set and run them staged. I wouldn't bother with dual pumps, especially if it is going to be mainly race bike. Mechanical pump alone needs just slightly longer cranking to start.

[geek]

I know a few people who have ditched the EFI for carbs on NA motors.

Just out curiosity, I pulled out a Gen 1 Busa and laid it next to an 1100 head. That looks very doable. Not a whole lot to the Gen 1 electronics. Seems like getting the crank sensor setup would be the hardest part.

For the GS, all the stock parts may be able to be used as-is. Ignition coils and all.

[hotrods316]

ok cool. so i like to run just one pump, keeps eveything sweet and simple. and yes i wont make more than 200 hp, it will be a 1200cc or less motor, and blown on nitro at most, so i think no more than 300hp at max, the bottom end would let loose way before that!

So arrtu I am thinking EFI would be the best best, just have to buy MS and fuel system. Would you suggest mechanical or electric for the pump?I can buy wholesale on automotive side of high performance, cant get the mechanical pumps though. It would be electric pumps. If you dont think the ebay walbro pump would be good, i have to check on aeromotive and the such brands. those are who i can buy...

and geek, yes i would run carbs but to put alky and nitro i need bigger flow (air and fuel both) and my carbs wont suffice. and i am not going to pay top dollar for some 33s for someone who paid mere pennies for them, not in the market to make someone rich on a single purchase. i ujnderstand making a buck on something but wont pay top dollar for something that isnt top dollar...

thanks matt

[ArttuH]

ok cool. so i like to run just one pump, keeps eveything sweet and simple. and yes i wont make more than 200 hp, it will be a 1200cc or less motor, and blown on nitro at most, so i think no more than 300hp at max, the bottom end would let loose way before that!

So arrtu I am thinking EFI would be the best best, just have to buy MS and fuel system. Would you suggest mechanical or electric for the pump?I can buy wholesale on automotive side of high performance, cant get the mechanical pumps though. It would be electric pumps. If you dont think the ebay walbro pump would be good, i have to check on aeromotive and the such brands. those are who i can buy...

Electric vs. mechanical pump selection is up to you. If you want to see all the effort to fit a mechanical pump to save battery. If you are looking for simple and cheap installation then electric pump is better option, IMO. For 200hp almost any electric EFI pump will do. 300hp with methanol/nitro will be more challenging but maybe still doable with an electric pump and total loss electric system. One good option is to start with electric pump and change to mechanical later on if needed. Wasted money and effort will be minimal.

Walbro is a good choice based on my experience.

[geek]

ok cool. so i like to run just one pump, keeps eveything sweet and simple. and yes i wont make more than 200 hp, it will be a 1200cc or less motor, and blown on nitro at most, so i think no more than 300hp at max, the bottom end would let loose way before that!

and geek, yes i would run carbs but to put alky and nitro i need bigger flow (air and fuel both) and my carbs wont suffice. and i am not going to pay top dollar for some 33s for someone who paid mere pennies for them, not in the market to make someone rich on a single purchase. i ujnderstand making a buck on something but wont pay top dollar for something that isnt top dollar...

thanks matt

To be clear, I have no parts for sale nor have I ever sold any parts on this site to members. That said, all the setup I have seen ran Lectrons.

I have ran pure methanol on a draw-thru turbo with a single carb and got it to work. Thought about building an EFI for a blow-thru using a single throttle body but stopped working on it when I switched to the busa.

Knew a guy (long time ago) that helped on a T/F Harley Davidson. They had a mag and did not use a pump. The injection system was pretty much an on off valve.

[trippivot]

get a Hillborne mechanical injection system -alky or gasoline- made in the 70's. I know of a complete 4 cylinder unit sitting on a shelf with KZ/GS spacing. I have seen it, and held it, so I know they exist. no need to fiddle faddle with pressure sensors/TPS/ECU / just tune to an EGT with a "pill" just like a bigblock V8 toilet.

[hotrods316]

no geek dont take any of what i said as directed towards you or anyone on here in particular. i have gotten plenty of parts from members here and they merely wanted shipping covered. the guys here are great people. i was just saying the price of smoothbores is ridiculous at times and i dont have the love affair with them that some do. if i went to carbs i would think lectrons, but i been reading that they dont take kindly to alky. not too sure im a car guy and still learning the nuances of bike parts for racing.

I woould love to see your turbo setup if you have and info pics specs etc. i get little details from everything i see and then mash it in my brain until something that pops out and i go for it. and yes i would love to go mag, nitro, blower, oh wait thats what my new dragster chassis is for, would rather have 200" wheelbase for that then a 58" bike. lol.

and thanks artu for the tips on pump selection, i will take all into consideration while i part the motor together.

TRIP- KNow if the guy wants to sell the injection setup? I have talked to stuart hilborn at PRI and to Walt TImblin (chassis) for over 5 hours and man those guys are great, told me some "speed secrets" if you know what i mean, how the rulebook can go gray after a awhile... so yes i know the setup is out there, microsprints run it around here. but when hilborn wanted a small fortune for a new system, and i was like man, i think i could build one for cheaper. which is what spud told me to doing exactly what you say, get a toilet bowl cheap and build a small plenum manifold to adapt to the motor and bam, injection setup that can be boosted later. i would say i can tune injection fairly well, we switch dragster to 33% stank this past season and didnt hurt anything or anyone (maybe some feelings but hey its NITRO BABY!!!)

ITs really a question of what comes available for the best price as of now, not swayed either way yet.but i like the idea of MS ignition controls built in, but i like the mechanical aspect of the MFI, i know i can diagnose with a wrench at the track if need be, and not need the computer to diagnose at the track...



thanks all and glad more people are seeing this and throwing info at me, it all helps!!!!

[geek]

no geek dont take any of what i said as directed towards you or anyone on here in particular.
....

I woould love to see your turbo setup if you have and info pics specs etc. i get little details from everything i see and then mash it in my brain until something that pops out and i go for it. and yes i would love to go mag, nitro, blower, oh wait thats what my new dragster chassis is for, would rather have 200" wheelbase for that then a 58" bike. lol.

No problem, just wanted to clear things up.

That Harley Davidson was an NA motor. They just gravity fed the fuel. They described it as a fuel dump system.

I started to post on that last turbo system.

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=207373

I did not get very far before I saw the light.

Some of the things I tried....

No floats, fuel fed into bottom of bowl. A dam sets the fuel height. A second pump removed the excess fuel after the dam and returns it to the top of the vented fuel tank.



One of the floatless carbs mounted up.


Nitrous to help get the thing moving



This setup was 100% methanol. Worked alright but the bike was pretty slow....

[geek]

This is close to how it looks now. Gasoline, HSR-42, single nitrous jet. The HSR took some work to get it right and Mr Turbo now sells the spacer plates.



The header, wastegate and plenum are all from the original Mr Turbo kit I bought when they were still located in Chicago.




I would guess this motor makes the kind of power you are looking for but you can ride this thing around in the pits, it's electric start and pretty dependable.

[geek]

This is the busa EFI I bought back in November before cutting it up. From what I have read, the Gen II would be even better (more features have been added). I have a friend who just put a Gen II on a K1. Was supposed to go to the dyno this week but I have not heard how it went.

I plan to run the Gen I 32-bit on the street bike with a MicroTech controller. This will be the test bike while I sort out some of this high tech stuff.

[posplayr]

This is the busa EFI I bought back in November before cutting it up. From what I have read, the Gen II would be even better (more features have been added). I have a friend who just put a Gen II on a K1. Was supposed to go to the dyno this week but I have not heard how it went.

I plan to run the Gen I 32-bit on the street bike with a MicroTech controller. This will be the test bike while I sort out some of this high tech stuff.

Gee, looks like you are going to have some fun. What did it cost for that compete setup I assume that was stripped of a Busa?

[geek]

This guy was switching the motors to Lectrons. About $500 with ignition key, cluster, all sensors, throttle body w/ injectors, ECM, ignition coils and air box. One was from a K5, with under 2000 miles on it (looks new). I plan to use this complete setup. The other one shown in this picture was cut up and used for my test setup.

Picked up a 16 and a 32-bit Gen I ECMs for $70. Both working. I plan to use the 16 at attempt cutting one apart. If it works out, I'll cut open a 32.

A lot of work and things to learn, but having fun with it.

[posplayr]

This guy was switching the motors to Lectrons. About $500 with ignition key, cluster, all sensors, throttle body w/ injectors, ECM, ignition coils and air box. One was from a K5, with under 2000 miles on it (looks new). I plan to use this complete setup. The other one shown in this picture was cut up and used for my test setup.

Picked up a 16 and a 32-bit Gen I ECMs for $70. Both working. I plan to use the 16 at attempt cutting one apart. If it works out, I'll cut open a 32.

A lot of work and things to learn, but having fun with it.

Are you going to be able to tune the ecu directly or does it even need it? Power Commander?