EFI Gurus needed. dragbike efi swap

[geek]

Are you going to be able to tune the ecu directly or does it even need it? Power Commander?

IMO, the ECM and harness will need some small changes. I am planning to use ROM Raider and ECUEditor to make these changes. The MicroTech has it's own software to make adjustments.

Besides the fuel and timing curves, there are other things I want that ECM to do. This shows the basic shifter and 2-step after I got them working.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMhODtHjP4c

[hotrods316]

geek, did you find this set-up better suited to adapting to the gs over a microsquirt ssetup? you mentioned you saw the light-was just curious...

Also does anyone know if you can wire in a SD card to the datalogger on a MS system so I dont have to strap a backpack to me while making passes down the strip?

MAtt

[geek]

geek, did you find this set-up better suited to adapting to the gs over a microsquirt ssetup? you mentioned you saw the light-was just curious...

Also does anyone know if you can wire in a SD card to the datalogger on a MS system so I dont have to strap a backpack to me while making passes down the strip?

MAtt

Hey Matt. I was suggesting that it no longer makes any sense for me to base anything on the 30 year old GS motors. Good virgin parts (cases, cranks) were hard to find then 493 rods dried up.

I think it would be fairly easy to run the GS using the 1300 EFI. But you could run the 1300 motor from the 1300 EFI too. To make 300HP on the GS, you will have to spend some cash if you want it to live. Or you could just drop a stock 1300 in it with a few small changes.

That said, I understand most have moved to the Gen 2 ECM now, even for the Gen 1 motors. Better software support and they are not running the second ECM.

For logging, you could then try what I plan to do, use a small PC. This video shows my logger. This video is quite old, and the software is much better now but you will get the idea. For the faster logging, I plan to use a cheap hardware logger also tied to the same PC.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aiAZRtiFyw

If you decide to attempt to run the Gen 1 fuel system and have questions, feel free to ask. I now know a fair amount about it.

[posplayr]

Hey Matt. I was suggesting that it no longer makes any sense for me to base anything on the 30 year old GS motors. Good virgin parts (cases, cranks) were hard to find then 493 rods dried up.

I think it would be fairly easy to run the GS using the 1300 EFI. But you could run the 1300 motor from the 1300 EFI too. To make 300HP on the GS, you will have to spend some cash if you want it to live. Or you could just drop a stock 1300 in it with a few small changes.

That said, I understand most have moved to the Gen 2 ECM now, even for the Gen 1 motors. Better software support and they are not running the second ECM.

For logging, you could then try what I plan to do, use a small PC. This video shows my logger. This video is quite old, and the software is much better now but you will get the idea. For the faster logging, I plan to use a cheap hardware logger also tied to the same PC.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aiAZRtiFyw

If you decide to attempt to run the Gen 1 fuel system and have questions, feel free to ask. I now know a fair amount about it.

That is quite an impressive setup. I'm pretty familiar with doing simulation, virtual displays and HWIL. I assume you are an also doing this professionally since you are using LabView.

How do you get the LM-2 WBO2 sensor to properly record O2? Do your have some sort of engine model there? How detailed is that?

[ArttuH]

geek, did you find this set-up better suited to adapting to the gs over a microsquirt ssetup? you mentioned you saw the light-was just curious...

Also does anyone know if you can wire in a SD card to the datalogger on a MS system so I dont have to strap a backpack to me while making passes down the strip?

MAtt

IMO there isn't much sense to try adapt the Busa ECU to other engines. The tuning software (EcuEditor or Woolich) isn't flexible enough for that. You just can't tune many parameters that are important if you are making major changes to the setup. Sure it's doable but it will need many workarounds and compromises and the result may still be less perfect.

I'm not aware of any plug-and-play dataloggers for MS1 or MS2. The MS3 has built-in SD card logging. There are some logging/tuning applications for Android phones that can be used for convenient logging. That needs also a serial-bluetooth adapter for communication. Btw, that BT adapter is a good addition also with a laptop in bike use. Much more convenient since you don't need to worry about the cable.

[geek]

That is quite an impressive setup. I'm pretty familiar with doing simulation, virtual displays and HWIL. I assume you are an also doing this professionally since you are using LabView.

How do you get the LM-2 WBO2 sensor to properly record O2? Do your have some sort of engine model there? How detailed is that?

Thanks. That was mostly a 3 month, no sleep effort. My original plan was to make an engine model and I was planning to do this in Labview. All the hardware is there to close the loop but for now everything is open loop.

I worked in automotive for about 20 years. 15 years ago I gave it up and changed careers.

I bought an LC-2 that I plan on using. The LM-2 is a nice product. It has a lot of features but was looking for something small that I could leave on the bike. I use the

From the software side of things, it's the same. Connecting it to the PC is nothing more than a FTDI USB to serial adapter. They have the protocol documented. I use the FTDI for everything now after the NI screwed up the serial port interface. This chipset works. The other problem is the LC/LM 2 will output data as soon as it is turned on. So the old Windows bug from the 90s rears it's ugly head. I was surprised this was still not addressed in Windows 8. The FTDI drivers allow you to turn off the enumeration.

IMO there isn't much sense to try adapt the Busa ECU to other engines. The tuning software (EcuEditor or Woolich) isn't flexible enough for that. You just can't tune many parameters that are important if you are making major changes to the setup. Sure it's doable but it will need many workarounds and compromises and the result may still be less perfect.

I have seen it used on other brands of bikes but tent to agree, use the 1300 motor. They are as easy to find now as the GS was in the day. I would be interested in hearing what would be considered a major change that would be a problem? I would think going from a NA to forced would be major and I know people doing this with just the stock Gen2 electronics (with a few tweaks).

[ArttuH]

I have seen it used on other brands of bikes but tent to agree, use the 1300 motor. They are as easy to find now as the GS was in the day. I would be interested in hearing what would be considered a major change that would be a problem? I would think going from a NA to forced would be major and I know people doing this with just the stock Gen2 electronics (with a few tweaks).

Here are few things that I have noticed with the Gen2 ECU:
-no injector dead time parameters adjustment
-no acceleration enrichment tuning
-no warmup enrichment tuning
-no calibration for most of the sensors

For example if you change the injectors it's pure luck how well dead time matches to the hard coded values in the ECU. And it depends on the case how much this matters. For racing use and with reasonably sized injectors it isn't so crucial since it will affect mostly for idle and low load conditions. But if you want perfectly tuned engine with large injectors this gets more important.

Acceleration and warmup enrichments are probably fine with busa engine and especially in race use where they don't need to be so perfectly tuned. But some other engines may need quite much different values and for street use these should be quite well tuned.

Sensor calibrations are fine as long as you use Busa sensors but with some other engine it might be convenient to be able to use other sensors as well.

Yes, Gen2 ECU can be used for boosted applications as well. I have done a couple of Gen1 to Gen2 conversions for turbo drag bikes.

[geek]

Some good thoughts. I doubt EFI would dominate the market if it was not for the push to lower emissions.

OP is talking about a drag bike. I assumed that is was this discussion is about. It would seem that most of these bikes are pushed to the line, pushed to the trailer and held wide open from start to the end of the track. Warmup I guess is the burnout. I totally agree with you if OP is making their nitro street bike pass pass CA smog tests.

[hotrods316]

yea i was asking this in regards to a race bike. It warms up in the pits and once warm stays warm until time to make a pass. Bike is fired, no burnout, launch and run commenced. I am drag racing but I get 1 mile to get to speed, 132 feet of speed traps. Pretty much full throttle once moving until run is over. Then I pull in clutch and roll off throttle, ease on brakes and once slowed down I down shift to second, make my turn off track and idle back to pit in first gear after i get my speed slip.

Would be happy to have an idling bike and a bike that runs wide open throttle. forget any street time for the initial application, full race.

geek, all of your above carb experiments didnt make the power you were looking for? I was going to bore my 26mm out to 29.5mm and rejet, figure more carb cant hurt. But want to put gas at first then alky and nitro to bike, not sure if reworked Mikunis will be a good choice for a base to work from or just build up an injection system...

[geek]

geek, all of your above carb experiments didnt make the power you were looking for? I was going to bore my 26mm out to 29.5mm and rejet, figure more carb cant hurt. But want to put gas at first then alky and nitro to bike, not sure if reworked Mikunis will be a good choice for a base to work from or just build up an injection system...

They did work for what I was doing at the time. I kept speeding that bike up and eventually, it became apparent that the carb was not going to flow enough fuel. I switched back to gasoline rather than investing in fuel injection. The Mikuni is tuned using jets and made things easier.

[ArttuH]

Some good thoughts. I doubt EFI would dominate the market if it was not for the push to lower emissions.

OP is talking about a drag bike. I assumed that is was this discussion is about. It would seem that most of these bikes are pushed to the line, pushed to the trailer and held wide open from start to the end of the track. Warmup I guess is the burnout. I totally agree with you if OP is making their nitro street bike pass pass CA smog tests.

Yes, it's probably doable and in drag racing use the limitations aren't that crucial. But what's the point? Why to bother with all required workarounds and compromise performance when there are more suitable ECU units available?

And if WOT performance is the only important factor then there isn't much point to switch form carbs to EFI.

[geek]

Yes, it's probably doable and in drag racing use the limitations aren't that crucial. But what's the point? Why to bother with all required workarounds and compromise performance when there are more suitable ECU units available?

And if WOT performance is the only important factor then there isn't much point to switch form carbs to EFI.

One reason to change to FI is the new bikes come with it. No reason to take it off. We are all aware that with the stock ECMs we get more than a fuel system in that box. I think the days of having all those separate controllers is nearing it's end.

For the 30 year old bikes like mine, you are right, it does not make any sense. That is unless you are a GS freak like most of us on this site! That is why I was suggesting to the OP to switch to a newer power plant. Parts are available and you can make the power levels they were talking about a lot cheaper.

[hotrods316]

as homer says, DOUGH!




yes definately good points with this. will save the efi for a future project, got quite a few going right now so this will continue with boring the carbs and tuning the bike with them.

Does anyone know the conversion chart for mikuni jets to fuel flow in wieght? I need to know so I know a jetting guide for alky if i choose to run methanol in my carbs. I can just put the ole lump back in and play with the gas jetting at the local drag track for a while.