78 GS1K Carb Rejet? Bad Fuel Economy - KEITH KRAUSE!

[Hoomgar]

Duane, you only needed to ask buddy. I told you I had a duell meter. I have all that old ignition stuff from my old Chevy SS days. Light, meter, feelers. I'll recheck the points and maybe just rape the Dyna electronic ignition out of my other bike. I plan on upgrading that anyway. We'll see. Money is tight so at a pinch new points and caps but I was hoping that by the time I needed them I would to the electronic route.

I was going to work on this last night but was ill and could work around the fuel fumes. Tonight I go to do head work on my other bike so hopefully I can get to this Wednesday night. The PA ride is this weekend. I need to step it up. How do I keep getting into this situation?

[Hoomgar]

Keith. It is hard to believe that those four little spacers can make such a difference in how a bike runs?! But they did. I got my power back! I didn't get a chance to get plug reads yet but I will.

I have a new issue now and don't want it in this thread so I posted a new thread for it here:

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/viewtopic.php?p=378132#378132

[KEITH KRAUSE]

Keith. It is hard to believe that those four little spacers can make such a difference in how a bike runs?! But they did. I got my power back! I didn't get a chance to get plug reads yet but I will.

I have a new issue now and don't want it in this thread so I posted a new thread for it here:
http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum...=378132#378132

I replied at your other topic too. For a nice guy, you sure have lots of problems. You ARE a nice guy right? Maybe you're cursed? I dunno.
As for removing the jetting spacers and richening it up a little, that would certainly help but shouldn't cause the "night and day" difference you describe. A 1/2 position on the needles certainly matters, but wouldn't cause the bike to go from smooth but obviously lacking power to what you have now. Not the drastic change you describe. I think, without knowing, you synched the carbs better after removing the spacers. That's something I always stress...double check, triple check your settings. I swear they move by themselves sometimes. Anyway, no matter now. Hopefully, your performance and reads will be good at 1/3 and wide open. You already say the needle reads looked good or just a bit lean, which removing the spacers will help richen just right. Then possibly a little fiddling with the pilot circuit pilot fuel screws and you should be good. The bike should start with a normal amount of choke and warm up quickly. It should idle about 1,000/1,100 rpm's. There should be no dark exhaust after a throttle blip after idling several seconds. There should be no bogs or stutters off idle, etc. The gas mileage should be decent and no raw fuel smells/heavy exhaust. Pilot circuit reads can be a little hard to get. Just cruise around in 4th gear for a couple miles at about 35 mph is good (minimal throttle opening is what you want), then chop off and read. I do this test right after the needle/wide open tests. Then you know the reads aren't effected by choking or excessive idling. As long as you synched correctly and your side air screws are set correctly, then all you have to adjust, if needed, is the pilot fuel screws. If you end up moving the pilot fuel screws beyond 1/4 turn from where they are now, then re-set the side air screws for highest rpm. You may not notice a change, but check anyway.

[Hoomgar]

I wouldn't call it night and day or say it has arrived Keith but it is "noticeably" better. Not much gets past me as far as performance. I notice things others don't. I am sure the bike can run even stronger but right now it is back to where it was before as far as power. Before removing the spacers it was down on power. The average rider would have never noticed. I do. I can tell in 1 gear what it is going to be like.

Not sure why this thing has given me so much grief. I never had a bike that required this much tinkering before. My other GS was a dream compared to this one as far as that goes. I just think it needs a lot of TLC to bring it back from where the PO took it :?

I wont have time to fix my fuel leak problem or get plug reads before the ride this weekend so I will just change the oil before we head out and do that stuff after we get back.

I think were really close now. A few more tweaks here and there and she should be good. It definitely runs smoother now.

As always Keith, thanx for the help buddy

[Hoomgar]

Small update. Keith, were getting close. The bike ran great for the PA ride this weekend. There is some poping on decel now. It isn't what I would call really bad but it is consistant and always does it as you came down close to stopping.

Here is the best part...


drum roll please ... - ... - ... - ...


I got just shy of 40 MPG on the ride this weekend!!! WooHoo!

That's a 16 to 18 MPG improvment from what it got when I bought it.

I want to fix the gas leaking into the crankcase issue next but then I will be back to fine turn the pilot circuit which I suspect is the culprit for my poping on decel.

Then we'll get some more plug reads and hopefully put this thread to rest

[KEITH KRAUSE]

Ahhhh grasshopper. It is good news you bring.
As for the pilot circuit and decel' popping, don't expect to get rid of it completely. I'm not saying you can't on your bike, but I just wanted to tell you that.
My bike (and several others I've jetted) have some decel' pop. Mine has some moderate popping if I shut the throttle off at about 6,000 rpm's, mostly lower gears. It doesn't last long. I knew before jetting my own bike that I may have to live with it. Similar bikes I jetted before had the same thing. This can happen with or without the DJ kit.
The main difference with the DJ kit is the needle and the early overlap effect with the pilot circuit. DJ warns you to leave the pilot jet stock. So of course, I had to play. Increasing the pilot jet to a 17.5 helps decel' pop but causes worse and harder to live with problems. The pilot circuit runs too rich...the bike can temporarily foul plugs with the choke on in the morning...a little puff of dark exhaust when you blip the throttle after several seconds idling...hard starting when hot...I'm sure a small loss in mpg...I'll take the decel' pop anytime.
The 17.5 pilots work better with the stock needle, but as you've learned, the rest of the performance suffers.
Your motor is at it's leanest when it's running at several thousand rpm with a closed/nearly closed throttle. The motor's revved up but it's being fed by that tiny little pilot jet.
What you can do: Be sure the side air screws are set for highest rpm and don't compromise that or you'll see worse things show up. As long as your float levels, synch, etc, are correct, all you can try is a little richer on the pilot fuel screws. But take those reads first at minimal throttle opening. Take them right after the 1/3 throttle run. If the plugs say you can richen them a tad, then go ahead. If not, then I suggest you leave the bike alone. Let me know how it goes.

[duaneage]

If not, then I suggest you leave the bike alone. Let me know how it goes.

Considering I was chasing your ass down those back roads near triple digits I think the bike is jetted as good as it will get. Take the masters advice and enjoy it already. It even smelled better.

[Hoomgar]

If not, then I suggest you leave the bike alone. Let me know how it goes.

Considering I was chasing your ass down those back roads near triple digits I think the bike is jetted as good as it will get. Take the masters advice and enjoy it already. It even smelled better.

Yeah I forgot to mention that Keith. It doesn't smoke or smell nearly as bad anymore either. And it makes smaller GS bikes with lighter riders work their butts off to keep up with it while it is just mildly scooting along :twisted:


It also seems to top out better now than it did before. Meaning, it hits the needle stop faster than before. Not that it did that on the PA ride mind you. Because it didn't

[Hoomgar]

Keith, I haven't had time yet to do a 1/3 throttle chop test as it requires daylight and I haven't had the opportunity yet. But a 1/4 or less read is easy without looking so I did a "just off idle" test last night on the way in and cut it off. At least we can look at this awhile. 3 and 4 are a tad darker on the insulator than 1 and 2. It is just a bit lean looking.

[img]http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0UQDrAhAal1lGwsO*wWYupOCSfT2X3nPtwOk9fEIde*Jrl58oV HQt5if1aE!GpVKjSsU0cIXvEaRHQvXJVpNuZuM07d15rlmztOw jyooQ14C6m1WEaVIfV9jPUshYXGz0/SpacersRemoved.jpg[/img]

Here is what it is doing that I have found riding it. It coughs or spits a lot into the carbs while cold. And it does it a bit at stops. It pops a good bit all the time when you leave off the gas. And there is a stutter at times when you go to get back on the throttle until it gets gas and smooths out. Sometimes trying to run with traffic results in stutters.

Can we do anything with this info or do you require that 1/3 throttle chop test first?

[KEITH KRAUSE]

Mark, as always, I'm trying to help without delaying you too much.
I only have a minute but wanted you to know I read your latest info.
What happened?? The bike seemed good after that long trip, but now you have stuff showing up? I know you tweaked the floats since to fix a leak.
I'll try to give some help about your problems later tonight. Sorry if you're depending on me and this delays you.

[KEITH KRAUSE]

Ok Mark, I'm back. All those problems you mention are a lean condition.
The "stutter" probably is too, but I'm not certain of that. But I'm considering it a lean condition too.
I know we sometimes have a communication problem but what's bothering me is that you took the bike on a long ride and should have had opportunities to notice how the bike ran from A to Z. You said it ran great except for some decel' popping. Now you say it's showing all these lean problems. At your other topic you said you played with the floats and float valves. Are you POSITIVE the floats are adjusted exactly as we had them before?? I hate to mess with the jetting if the floats are to blame.
Another thing that bothers me is the uneven plug readings. I mean, if the carbs are cleaned, rebuilt, floats set, vacuum synched, same jets, valves adjusted, all that basic stuff, then why the uneven reads? What I'm hoping here is those reads were taken at lower cruising speeds. That would mean that the pilot fuel screws may fix you up because they still need fine tuning. But if your reads are more effected by the jet needle, then the needles will have to be raised, which is nothing unusual.
Be sure of the floats. If the floats are set correctly, then here's what you can try to richen the mixture. Easier things first.
If the bike was with me, I'd double check all filter/manifold clamps/exhaust bolts, then double check the vacuum synch and fine tune if needed. I'm assuming the air screws are set correctly and not just "kind of close". Very important. The bike should be idling at 1,000/1,100 rpm warmed up. I'd make sure all the K&N's are colored/oiled uniformly. Plugs gapped correctly.
If ANY of the above had a problem or was off a little, that could explain the reads. It would also change my pilot fuel screw adjustment suggestions. If all the above was correct, then I'd richen the pilot fuel screws. I'm not sure where you have them (updates of ANY changes helps) but I'd try an additional 1/4 turn out on 3 and 4, and an additional 1/2 turn out on 1 and 2. Now re-check the air screws for highest rpm and re-set if needed. Be careful to set them correctly and don't go beyond the sweet spot. As always, test at 1/3 throttle and then at minimal throttle/slow speed such as 4th gear at 35 mph for the pilot circuit.
If you still need to richen things, you can try richening the pilot fuel screws a little more and test. If your 1/3 throttle test shows lean, then this could also have an overlap effect on the pilot circuit. So you could end up raising the needles and re-setting the pilot fuel screws a little leaner again. I'm just trying to cover all possibilities. It's hard for me to say (not being able to test the bike myself) if the screws or the needles or a combination of each will fix you up.
If you have to raise the needles, you would try a 1/2 position richer. That would mean taking the e-clip out of position 4 and placing it at position 5, then placing a DJ jetting spacer directly on top the e-clip. This would be position 4 1/2. You would then have to re-vacuum synch. You may then find the additional pilot screw adjustments will be too rich in combination with the needle change and you'll have to play with them again. Just be sure which way you're turning them. Many turn them the wrong way when they're "upside down". I use a small mirror and light and remind myself which way is richening before turning.
Hope this covers you. Please read all the above carefully! Talk to you later.

[Hoomgar]

Mark, as always, I'm trying to help without delaying you too much.
I only have a minute but wanted you to know I read your latest info.
What happened?? The bike seemed good after that long trip, but now you have stuff showing up? I know you tweaked the floats since to fix a leak.
I'll try to give some help about your problems later tonight. Sorry if you're depending on me and this delays you.

Keith, buddy, your under no obligation here. When you get time, I am greatful. And until then, I wait patiently

The conditions I listed have been since I used the Dyna jet kit. It did this during the entire PA ride. It wasn't only after I redid the floats.

[Hoomgar]

Ok Mark, I'm back. All those problems you mention are a lean condition.
The "stutter" probably is too, but I'm not certain of that. But I'm considering it a lean condition too.
I know we sometimes have a communication problem but what's bothering me is that you took the bike on a long ride and should have had opportunities to notice how the bike ran from A to Z. You said it ran great except for some decel' popping. Now you say it's showing all these lean problems. At your other topic you said you played with the floats and float valves. Are you POSITIVE the floats are adjusted exactly as we had them before?? I hate to mess with the jetting if the floats are to blame.

See post just above.

Another thing that bothers me is the uneven plug readings. I mean, if the carbs are cleaned, rebuilt, floats set, vacuum synched, same jets, valves adjusted, all that basic stuff, then why the uneven reads? What I'm hoping here is those reads were taken at lower cruising speeds. That would mean that the pilot fuel screws may fix you up because they still need fine tuning. But if your reads are more effected by the jet needle, then the needles will have to be raised, which is nothing unusual.

Like I said Keith that read was taken at "just off idle" throttle position. If there was any needle circuit in it at all I would be surprised. And if so very very little. We should be able to tweak it out with pilots then from what you say. Cool

I am going to get you a 1/3 throttle plug read though before we move on. My hunch is that your going to want me to move another 1/2 space richer on the needle before anything and therefore there is no sense in doing the pilot just yet.

Be sure of the floats. If the floats are set correctly, then here's what you can try to richen the mixture. Easier things first.
If the bike was with me, I'd double check all filter/manifold clamps/exhaust bolts, then double check the vacuum synch and fine tune if needed. I'm assuming the air screws are set correctly and not just "kind of close". Very important. The bike should be idling at 1,000/1,100 rpm warmed up. I'd make sure all the K&N's are colored/oiled uniformly. Plugs gapped correctly.
If ANY of the above had a problem or was off a little, that could explain the reads. It would also change my pilot fuel screw adjustment suggestions.

I assure you ALL of that has just been redone, rechecked and is spot on! All of it. Were good there.

If all the above was correct, then I'd richen the pilot fuel screws. I'm not sure where you have them (updates of ANY changes helps) but I'd try an additional 1/4 turn out on 3 and 4, and an additional 1/2 turn out on 1 and 2. Now re-check the air screws for highest rpm and re-set if needed. Be careful to set them correctly and don't go beyond the sweet spot.

This is what I will do then. I didn't note any screw adjustment changes because there hasn't been any. I have been trying to keep you 100% in the loop here. They are still 1.5 turns out each. The DynaJet kit says 2.5 turns out to start but needle in the third clip. However, I have been following your advice, not the kit.

As always, test at 1/3 throttle and then at minimal throttle/slow speed such as 4th gear at 35 mph for the pilot circuit.
If you still need to richen things, you can try richening the pilot fuel screws a little more and test. If your 1/3 throttle test shows lean, then this could also have an overlap effect on the pilot circuit. So you could end up raising the needles and re-setting the pilot fuel screws a little leaner again. I'm just trying to cover all possibilities. It's hard for me to say (not being able to test the bike myself) if the screws or the needles or a combination of each will fix you up.

Believe it or not that makes complete sense to me. I follow you 100% on that. I am ready to fine tune it now. No way I am giving up when I've come this far. I plug my ears when the nay-sayers come around encouraging me to quit

If you have to raise the needles, you would try a 1/2 position richer. That would mean taking the e-clip out of position 4 and placing it at position 5, then placing a DJ jetting spacer directly on top the e-clip. This would be position 4 1/2. You would then have to re-vacuum synch.

Yup yup. Already figured that was what you would say. Question: The DynaJet spacers are not flat, they are kind of bowled out a bit? Is that right or should I press them perfectly flat?

You may then find the additional pilot screw adjustments will be too rich in combination with the needle change and you'll have to play with them again. Just be sure which way you're turning them. Many turn them the wrong way when they're "upside down". I use a small mirror and light and remind myself which way is richening before turning.
Hope this covers you. Please read all the above carefully! Talk to you later.

Yeah I would expect that. No worries on the direction. I am not dyslexic

And I read everything you said very carefully. I assure you

Thanks buddy. It's paying off. This thing was making me switch to reserve at 82 miles when I bought it. I now go over 120 miles before switching to reserve and that isn't highway. My reserve is at 3.5 gallons down so that is roughly 40 more miles on that 3.5 gallons. An average improvement of over 11 MPG more now! I am very pleased so far.

[KEITH KRAUSE]

OK. If your previous reads were at minimal throttle, then I have more hope that adjusting the pilot screws will fix you up. Most people agree the pilots can go about 3 turns out before further effect becomes insignificant. Some say 4 turns but I don't agree and have never had to try them that far out.
Has DJ changed their "base settings" for the needle e-clip?? It was always the 2nd position with a spacer (actually 1 1/2 and way too lean) but now you say the 3rd? At least they're getting closer! Doesn't matter to us anyway.
And NO!! don't flatten the jetting spacers. They're all that way. I'm not sure why. Flattening them would slightly compromise the thickness and just give you one more potential thing to deal with. I've never heard/read any info about a "correct" way to install them either. I just install 'em. I hope you won't be needing to use them anyway.
If you're testing Saturday, I'll be at work until around 4. If something comes up you need help with, I'll try to check in then and help.
Hopefully, you just need to tweak the screws some. Remember, the pilot circuit isn't considered done until you've gone through hot and cold seasons. You may find small changes develop as it gets colder out and you may have to make some compromise settings...or make "set" adjustments each hot/cold season that you know works from previous performance. Always keep records. All part of the jetting game. But we'll see what your solid 1/3 throttle tests say too. Just be careful while hi-speed testing please.

[Hoomgar]

Keith, the 1/3 chop is done. I would call it both good and bad

[img]http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0TQAAAM0XCLkHutkVf673dwblKsiFo4EVWdAQFOuh!h1kHMz4K 90VOUdxtoxXsltU9*JB69SG5VgV5MCR8lHHB22v7V3RuCiMz!p h7mMtcA5ntwG07oDyUg/1thirdchop.jpg[/img]

It is good because for sure it isn't too lean. I would call it just right really. Maybe even a hair on the dark side. A new set of plugs should be used to know for sure I guess?

The bad is because something disturbing has come back. The reads are back to showing leaner in the two middle plugs than the outside two again. I say good enough at this point. I am pleased with how it is running.

The only thing left to finish this up is to richen the idle circuit just a bit to get rid of the lean condition there. From the previous pic of the "just off idle" or 1/4 throttle or less chop test, how far out do you think I should go with the pilots?