78 GS1K Carb Rejet? Bad Fuel Economy - KEITH KRAUSE!

[earlfor]

Thank you Duane. :-) For a streetbike, I see no advantage to using pods and a lot of disadvantages. The most frequent reason I hear for using pods is because the carbs are difficult to install to the airbox. Pods are great, ......if you are trying to decrease efficiency. LOL

Earl


[quote="duaneage"]I think that one possible variable could be the pods. I am not a fan of pods because they do not perform a few key functions that the airbox assembly does ( Keith, don't yell at me!)

1. With the airbox the carb has .....................................

[duaneage]

Here is the paradox.

I pod so I can get the carbs off easier so I can rejet easier because I pod.

Took my 650 carbs off to fix them, 15 minutes to get them off because I never did it before. 5 minutes back on becuase I lubed the boots properly and followed the clymers manual exactly.

I don't take carbs apart enough to justify making it easier to do it.

[earlfor]

Agreed. I cant remove the carbs and reinstall them on either my 83 1100 or my 85 1150 in about 15 minutes, sometimes less. On my 79 750, I could remove the carbs and airbox and resinstall them in 5 minutes. It isnt worth while to go to pod to save a couple of minutes and pay for it evertime I want to ride. I'll keep my linear throttle response, low noise level, and good gas milage thank you. :-)

Earl
OK Keith, go ahead and yell at me too. :-) :-)

Here is the paradox.

I pod so I can get the carbs off easier so I can rejet easier because I pod.

Took my 650 carbs off to fix them, 15 minutes to get them off because I never did it before. 5 minutes back on becuase I lubed the boots properly and followed the clymers manual exactly.

I don't take carbs apart enough to justify making it easier to do it.

[KEITH KRAUSE]

To all you guys that don't like pods, all I can say is that's your choice.
As long as the pods are K&N's, I like em'. I have no problem with them. If I had the problems or fears you guys have experienced or imagined, maybe I'd join you. I have the patience to work on jetting. Working with K&N's, pipes, piston kits, I have no problems. Hot cams and porting mod's change things though. Nothing gives you more bang for the buck in my opinion. A good pod/pipe combo is worth every penny and minute spent.
Properly jetted, a pod/pipe bike will out perform a stocker, easily.
I don't understand, or try to, all the science behind this stuff. I just know what has worked for many bikes I've tinkered with. I've never had a problem I couldn't figure out, but this is with me doing every single bit of work to the bike, not over the web.
I don't get to re-jet bikes very often anymore because most everyone I ride with has bought newer bikes or changed to different brands or just quit riding. But I still know what works whenever I do get a chance, or someone sends me their carbs to re-jet/rebuild. I follow a strict procedure when doing this stuff and it always comes out right. With Marks bike, this procedure has been changed. I have to work with him and if he wants to use parts I don't prefer, it's his bike.
There are unknowns with Marks bike. We already exposed a weaker spark/coil to 1/4. This helped. He just said the bike runs really good, but we can see the plugs aren't right yet. This could be jetting, sure, but it could be an unknown. Worn jet needles... worn needle jets... float level...sticking slide that apparently synchs well but changes during the test...incorrect needle jet size...filter flow compromised by poor maintenance...valve clearances incorrect...and there's many more reasons.
Through several needle positions, his #3 is always leaner despite all work concerning that cylinder done identical according to Mark. Something's different. Don't blame the pods simply because they're pods.

[KEITH KRAUSE]

Mark, I don't know what you mean in your first sentence, about this bike wants 90 mph at 1/3 throttle. ???
As for increasing the mains at 2/3, the plug reads you have shown us are supposed to be at 1/3 throttle. The main isn't working at this throttle position. Visit Mikuni's website or read a factory Suzuki manual regarding the seperate jetting circuits. The charts/info will tell you the same thing.
I've never had to install different sizes of mains to get even reads (for full throttle), unless the bike came that way to begin with. If the bike came with all mains the same, I change them the same and it works. That's my experience.
Sounds like the performance is good, pending a more complete check. The 2/3 cylinders have a mind of their own though regarding plug color, huh? Could be so many things other than the needle itself. I would have at least made some pilot fuel screw adjustments and re-tested, could have some effect. I would try some float level tinkering too, still in the factory "range" of course. Maybe bump up the 2/3 vacuum levels a 1/2" higher. As long as every change is in an acceptable range, the combination of changes could get 2/3 right. Could be the cylinder itself.
I'm sorry if you want to give up. I didn't expect that. It's your bike and your time. I spent a lot of time too but that's the way it goes. I seriously doubt that many people would stick with you as I have. I'm not complaining, just wish it worked out. I know you've worked at this and we all have reasons that change our plans/ideas. This topic has been viewed a lot and I considered it a good chance to help others too. I wanted it to work out just as much as you.
Your bike is showing unknown problems. You told me over the phone that monkeys have worked on this bike. Anything is possible. The weaker coil fix was a step forward but there's obviously other differences to discover. I'd love to check and do work on the bike myself, but that's not possible.
If you go back and read the first part of my first reply to this topic, I said to use a DJ jet kit. The stock needles just don't work sometimes, especially with K&N's. I mentioned this again as we went along. I know what gives good results with this bike. But I can only suggest, not force something on a person.
Would a DJ kit fix this bike? Yes...if the rest of the bike is right.
Again, don't take this post the wrong way. I'm just disappointed for you.

[Hoomgar]

Mark, I don't know what you mean in your first sentence, about this bike wants 90 mph at 1/3 throttle. ???

Keith, that simply is saying that in 5th gear 1/3 throttle gives me 90+ miles per hour on the clock. Nothing more nothing less.

I'm sorry if you want to give up. I didn't expect that. It's your bike and your time.

Keith, what the hell are you talking about buddy????? I don't recall saying anything anywhere ever about giving up? I am on this. I thought we were going to get this dialed in? I think you misread something?

I spent a lot of time too but that's the way it goes. I seriously doubt that many people would stick with you as I have. I'm not complaining, just wish it worked out. I know you've worked at this and we all have reasons that change our plans/ideas. This topic has been viewed a lot and I considered it a good chance to help others too. I wanted it to work out just as much as you.

Are you saying your giving up? I mean, I sure cannot expect anything of you as this is free help on a public forum but I was really starting to learn a lot and get somewhere with this old beast with your help. Don't throw in the towel on me yet buddy. I still have much fight left in me!

Your bike is showing unknown problems. You told me over the phone that monkeys have worked on this bike. Anything is possible. The weaker coil fix was a step forward but there's obviously other differences to discover. I'd love to check and do work on the bike myself, but that's not possible.
If you go back and read the first part of my first reply to this topic, I said to use a DJ jet kit. The stock needles just don't work sometimes, especially with K&N's. I mentioned this again as we went along. I know what gives good results with this bike. But I can only suggest, not force something on a person.
Would a DJ kit fix this bike? Yes...if the rest of the bike is right.
Again, don't take this post the wrong way. I'm just disappointed for you.

Well then your the only one. I am not disappointed at all and am far from discouraged. this is an old bike with unknown problems just as you said. The plan is to get it running as best we can with as safe a burn as we can get it before the rally. obviously I will have to take it on the trip that way them. But just as I had shared with you when we spoke, when I get back, I plan on finishing this.


Keith, you have been a champ in helping me out with this. I never intended for it to be burdon. I was having fun learning this. I am sorry if this issue has been burning you out. I consider you a friend and a knowledgable source of info to help me get it squared away.

I hope you reconsider. I was really counting on your help. But I have no control over the condition the bike was in when I got it. I only have the power to change/fix it.

My sincerest apologies for the overload.

[KEITH KRAUSE]

Mark, I read your reply to my post and you said the bike ran good. However, we can see the plugs still say we have a lean problem. Then Duane replied about his opinions on pods. The next thing I see is you saying you want to get a stock airbox 8O . Then Earl chimes in with his thoughts about pods. It certainly sounded like you planned to drop the re-jet and go back to stock. I'm like...what??
Whatever's going on with your bike and the difficulties we have, an airbox and stock jets won't fix things. Something else is wrong. But if you're still game for the re-jet, I'll try to get back with you tonight.
I have to go. I'll talk to you later.

[Hoomgar]

Mark, I read your reply to my post and you said the bike ran good. However, we can see the plugs still say we have a lean problem. Then Duane replied about his opinions on pods. The next thing I see is you saying you want to get a stock airbox 8O . Then Earl chimes in with his thoughts about pods. It certainly sounded like you planned to drop the re-jet and go back to stock. I'm like...what??
Whatever's going on with your bike and the difficulties we have, an airbox and stock jets won't fix things. Something else is wrong. But if you're still game for the re-jet, I'll try to get back with you tonight.
I have to go. I'll talk to you later.

Keith, I first started talking about a stock aibox back on the first page of this thread on my 5th post on April 21st. At that time I put a wanted add in the wanted to buy section. I have spoken about an air box several times throughout the thread. This wasn't the first time buddy

I am kicking ideas around. Sure as heck doesn't mean I am giving up on any particular idea.

Tonight I go to Paparo's to put the output shaft seal in. Then I am back on it.

Thx for not givin up on me man

You rock!

[KEITH KRAUSE]

Okie dokie!
I'll cut through all the chit-chat and tell you what I'd try at this point. If you later want to know my reasoning, we'll talk. I'm trying to get this to you in time so you can work on it, if that's what you have planned. I know you're running out of time.
For this particular bike, these are the adjustments I'd make if the bike was here. I know it's your time and you must be getting tired of taking things apart, but that's jetting/trouble shooting. :roll:
If everything is still the same since your last test:
Turn the pilot fuel screws (underneath) OUT an additional 1/2 turn for carbs 2 and 3. Keep a record.
Take the bowls off 2 and 3 and VERIFY your previous float level adjustments. If they're set correctly, which I believe you did at .94/.95"?, re-set the measurement to .92". That's still within the factory spec's (.90-.98") and will make it just a little easier for the jets to draw fuel.
If they WERE off (too lean) then set them to the optimum .94/ 95".
Set them exactly. The vernier should B-A-R-E-L-Y graze the top of the float, if that. You know what I mean.
Next, VERIFY the previous vacuum levels, just to see if we have a sticky slide or two at 2 and 3. If the initial level(s) you read at 2 and 3 are low, we may have found a problem. If they're still the way you set them, try this.
Add just a little vacuum to 2 and 3 with a re-synch.
Try to add between 1/2" and 3/4" of vacuum to 2 and 3...so they're that much higher than 1 and 4. Don't touch 1 and 4. Generally, this amount of difference is acceptable and will not be significant enough to hinder performance. You're still in the range of a good synch.
These 3 adjustments are all considered normal. You have to make allowances for different cylinders, as long as you don't go beyond spec's or common sense. This will hopefully result in good performance and good plug reads too.
Hope this helps. Talk to you later.

[skip]

Am I wrong in my thinking? I thought that the needle falls into the mainjet , therefore the larger the hole size in the main jet the more fuel will pass through and around the needle even at partial throttle when you are just "on the needle," Or the needle is only partialy inserted in the main jet. If hoomie just increases the main jet size (say one size in the center cyls like my ZRX was from the factory) ,wont that richen the cylinders in the middle and help his lean condition? one jet size wont really make that much difference in performance but may darken up those white plugs. Hoomie has said the bike runs well but the plugs are lean. Why would kawasaki run there inside cylinders richer? if its good for kawi, why not hoomie? just thinkin out loud folks anybody agree or dissagree? ..................skip

[KEITH KRAUSE]

Skip, the fuel will be regulated at the smallest passage or gap along the needle jet and tapered jet needle and main jet.
Generally, when the throttle is at 3/4, this is the point where the gap becomes larger at the needle jet and tapered jet needle and so the smallest passage, now through the main jet, regulates the fuel flow.
In the case of a correctly set up 78/79 1000 in good mechanical condition, you would not need to install larger mains in the 2/3 cylinders to help with 3/4 throttle and above. If you did, this would be compensation jetting. Compensating for something else wrong.
Yes, it can work, but it usually creates another problem.

[Hoomgar]

Ok that's what I will do tonight. One thing to make clear to my helpers and all readers. This is fun for me. I enjoy it and taking the carbs out and tinkering/learning is no bother. I am having a blast.

I say that because I know it looks like there has been frustration in this thread related to getting these carbs dialed in. But there isn't any frustration on my part. Maybe the guys trying to teach me

The thread has gone 10 pages already! I never intended that but I have been enjoying every minute of this. I encourage anyone else who wants to learn this stuff and get their bike running right to except that it may take a good bit of time to get it right at first attempt and to enjoy the process of getting there.

I haven?t arrived by any means. But I will!

That said, back to business. Tonight, carbs come off.

Floats in 2 & 3 are getting set to .92 or at least just a tad higher.
I am going to test these levels with a clear tube as recommended in other threads.

Once that is right I am going out ? turn on the pilot screws for 2 & 3.

Recheck WOT setting screw. Back in the bike.

Recheck sync first!

Recheck air screws for max idle.

Plug test run.


BTW...

My oil leak is fixed
Check it: http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum...=348342#348342

[wrench]

What happened to your dinner date and a movie buddy :?

[Hoomgar]

What happened to your dinner date and a movie buddy :?

OK, adendum here...

The work posted above is for after that? :?

If there is time. Your not going to report me to the sesitivity police are you John? Or Nancy! 8O

I get so wrapped up I forget stuff. But never worry, there is no way I would have been able to forget.

Look at the picture in your mind, work duds on, gasey smell on hands tinkering with carbs on bench, Nancy comes out "what time where you planning on us leaving?"

Me thinking carefully for a minute. Then replying, I?ll be ready in 5 minutes. Acting all the while like I was just making busy while waiting on her.

Thx John

This brings a whole new angle to the term "help thread" 8)

There is always Saturday. Right? What else am I forgetting :? 8-[

[wrench]

Hey i just didn't want too see ya getting in trouble with the Boss