New boots! Still won't idle.

[UncleMike]

I was assuming all along that the carbs had been cleaned but I know from experience that many people forget or miss the pilot circuit by-pass holes.
When your bike idles at the factory recommended idle, it's running on the pilot circuit. These bypass ports (they by-pass the throttle plates) are the fine tuning for the pilot circuit. The mixture screws regulate them. I don't know why you mention in a previous post that you cleaned mixture screws AND air screws/passages? Your CV carbs only have mixture screws.
I don't know if the "smoke" issue is condensation or oil burning. Oil will linger longer. Condensation is just water/mist.
Also, 17 volts is too high. I'm not sure if that means the regulator and/or stator is failing, but check the stator papers. You mentioned the bike starts to die as the voltmeter shows the volts going too high (beyond 15 volts at higher rpm's).
Sorry for such quick reply, but I'm off to work and just trying to keep on this.

They had been cleaned, I soaked the bodies for over 24 hours each. I just didn't know where all the little holes were. I found one in front of the throttle plate that I could ream out through the mixture screw passage. I also found three behind the throttle plate, but I couldn't figure out where to get at them, so I just stuck my wire up into them.

The air screw I'm talking about is the get on the airbox side throat.

And please don't apologize, Keith. Any amount of attention is appreciated.

[chef1366]

I love this drawing. It shows all the tiny passages. I can't remember who posted this but I got it from this site.

[UncleMike]

Update

So what does this tell you?

I took the carbs off again and cleaned all those passages again. The only ones I worry about are the tiny little ones behind the throttle plate. I could only just get a wire into there a little bit.

Put them back on and the bike while still stalling when I first start it unless I blip the throttle for a while, goes it idling quite quickly, ie within minutes rather than half an hour of hard riding.

I tool around town making sure to keep revs low so I can be passing fluid through the idle circuit. It's strong and smooth and most of the time it's keeping idle. A couple of times when coming to a stop after cruising for a while, it will threaten to die. Blip the throttle and the strong idle comes back, sometimes rising or hanging a bit.

This morning I go to start her and she's back to her old tricks, stalling out no matter what unless I blip that throttle, but again she idles after only a couple of minutes, albeit a weak idle around 900-1000.

I come upstairs for about ten minutes and then go back down to the garage and start her again. She starts right up with no choke and idles strongly at 1100.

I'm baffled.

~Mike

[UncleMike]

It did it again. I went to start it, and it would die not matter what I did, no matter where the choke was positioned, unless I blipped the throttle constantly, or just held it on a very tiny amount.

I shut it off and walked away for maybe two minutes and when I started it again, she started right away with no choke and idled nicely at 1100rpms.

What the hell is up with this bike?!?!!?

~Mike

[KEITH KRAUSE]

It did it again. I went to start it, and it would die not matter what I did, no matter where the choke was positioned, unless I blipped the throttle constantly, or just held it on a very tiny amount.

I shut it off and walked away for maybe two minutes and when I started it again, she started right away with no choke and idled nicely at 1100rpms.
~Mike

OK. At this point I'd assume the carbs are cleaned/set up well.
Clogged passages...clogged jets...incorrect float levels...incorrect vacuum synch...wouldn't cause the above statement to happen. Carbs can't clog up and then clear themselves or lose adjustments so quickly and allow the above to happen. Especially after the carbs have been cleaned and inspected for any obvious problems.
It's true that if your problem is fuel related and at the throttle position you describe, the pilot circuit and carb synch would be suspect. But you've addressed those areas and I have to assume the carbs are OK and now I think we can look elsewhere for what would cause this on-again-off again idle problem.
At this point I'd suspect the ignition system/spark quality.
We all know that an intermittent or weak spark, even at just one cylinder, can cause an idle/warm up problem. Electrical problems are infamous for on-again-off-again performance too. A poor connection can act up any way that it wants to at times. Electrical problems can drive you crazy.
Electrical/spark problems often "improve" with higher rpm's, such as when you give your bike that little bit of throttle when it's showing the problem. The higher rpm's equal higher voltage and that equals higher amps (current flow). The higher flow may help a poor connection at times. Simply turning off the bike and then re-starting can cause a poor connection to act up and change again.
I can't be certain your problem is electrical, but only carburetion or the electrical system can cause your specific problem. Poor compression, valves, rings, pistons, cams/timing, etc, would all cause problems that don't go away and then come back. And after the carb work you say has been done, the carbs should be OK too.
Granted, an intermittent spark should be something you can hear as the problems cylinder(s) fire and then miss firing. But it can be subtle sometimes and some people can't hear a missing bike even when they KNOW a bike is missing.
As for fixing/checking a possible electrical problem, I would simply check and VERIFY that each plug cap and lead connection is tight and clean of any corrosion. That means unscrewing them or disconnecting things and looking at every connection. Check the coil terminals too and check for broken strands of wire. Check the leads too for any signs of aging/cracking.
Make sure the aluminum caps are tight on the sparkplugs (if your caps require the aluminum caps be used). Follow your manual and check any other connection points that could cause your problem.
Next, check the ignition timing with a gun and verify that it's advancing as it should. Check it a couple of times at different rpm's. I believe your ignition advancer is non-adjustable but should still be checked. I don't know the specific design of your model but I know of some ignitions that can fail because the shaft rotor that contains the magnets/sensors breaks lose and spins on the shaft. This causes "hanging" and inconsistent idling speeds. So I'm just suggesting you make sure that everything is operating correctly behind the ignition cover.
Lastly, I'm no real expert on the charging system, but I suggest you check out the Stator Papers. I believe that if your voltage tester is showing 17 volts and your tester is accurate, you have a high voltage problem that needs to be fixed. It may involve replacing the regulator and/or stator. I believe that 15.5 volts at 5K rpm (?) is the maximum your system can handle before problems start showing up but check the Stator Papers first.
Hope this helps. I stayed up late trying to help you fix this or at least narrow things down.

[UncleMike]

Keith,

Thank you, thank you, thank you. I'll check the spark plugs and coils next, and then figure out how to check the ignition.

Scary, uncharted territory for me, but it's gotta be done.

Thanks,
~Mike

[KEITH KRAUSE]

OK. Checking for poor connections is fairly easy and straight forward. It just takes time and a little effort.
Checking the advancer is easy too with a gun. You just watch the marks move/line up. I'm not sure what your parts look like but if you check several times at different rpm's and it advances smoothly, at least you can eliminate it as a possible problem. Quick and simple to do.
As for the 17 volt problem, the Stator Papers will explain better than I can. All I can say is that needs to be fixed regardless if it's your problem or not. You did say that the bike seemed to start stalling as you watched the volts climb on your meter, if I'm not mistaken.
I don't want to send you down the wrong road, but at this point, considering your carb work, I have to believe it's electrical and not carb related.

[UncleMike]

OK. Checking for poor connections is fairly easy and straight forward. It just takes time and a little effort.
Checking the advancer is easy too with a gun. You just watch the marks move/line up. I'm not sure what your parts look like but if you check several times at different rpm's and it advances smoothly, at least you can eliminate it as a possible problem. Quick and simple to do.
As for the 17 volt problem, the Stator Papers will explain better than I can. All I can say is that needs to be fixed regardless if it's your problem or not. You did say that the bike seemed to start stalling as you watched the volts climb on your meter, if I'm not mistaken.
I don't want to send you down the wrong road, but at this point, considering your carb work, I have to believe it's electrical and not carb related.

As you said, it's worth looking into regardless.

Thanks again for everything,
~Mike

[Matt]

Mike, I read through this thread today during my lunch break at work. It seems that we have a similar level of competence when it comes to mechanics. I try but don't have as much experince as I could really do with. I truely understand your frustration. Although I can't offer you any practical advice do understand that you are not the only who has problems like this. Be strong brother, and I'm sure I speak for others here, our thoughts are with you. Good Luck:-D
Matt

[UncleMike]

Does it help solve the issue if I tell you that when the bike was FULLY warmed up yesterday during my ride, the bike started idling at 2000rpms and it was a strong idle, too?

BTW - Same thing this morning. Started her with 3/4 choke, she started up and idled at 900, then slowly climbed to 2500 and held there before slowly and smoothly losing rpms until she started to stall. I blipped the throttle for a little bit but she died.

I tried again and got the same thing. But then I tried with no choke and she started right up and idled at 1100rpms.

I hadn't touched the idle knob since she was idling at 2000 yesterday.

~Mike

[t3rmin]

Have you checked your gas cap? I've read that if the cap isn't breathing right, the tank will build up enough negative pressure (from gas being extracted) that gas flow will stop/slow down. This process can take a while, so you'd be able to start the bike fine but it would stall once pressure built up. I think this was happening to me last night. When I took off the cap, it ran fine. I cleaned the cap out with carb cleaner and now it's happy.

[UncleMike]

Have you checked your gas cap? I've read that if the cap isn't breathing right, the tank will build up enough negative pressure (from gas being extracted) that gas flow will stop/slow down. This process can take a while, so you'd be able to start the bike fine but it would stall once pressure built up. I think this was happening to me last night. When I took off the cap, it ran fine. I cleaned the cap out with carb cleaner and now it's happy.

Yeah, I checked it out a while back. Cleaned it twice just to be sure, but the problem still exists when the cap is off the bike.

[t3rmin]

Ok. This thread is getting so long I might have read it here! ;-)

[KEITH KRAUSE]

Does it help solve the issue if I tell you that when the bike was FULLY warmed up yesterday during my ride, the bike started idling at 2000rpms and it was a strong idle, too?

BTW - Same thing this morning. Started her with 3/4 choke, she started up and idled at 900, then slowly climbed to 2500 and held there before slowly and smoothly losing rpms until she started to stall. I blipped the throttle for a little bit but she died.

I tried again and got the same thing. But then I tried with no choke and she started right up and idled at 1100rpms.

I hadn't touched the idle knob since she was idling at 2000 yesterday.

~Mike

I was about to ask if you had any other symptoms than stalling.
The only things I can think of (it's late and I'm tired/about to sign off) that can cause the rpm's to rise as you describe above are...
An intake leak...
A sticking throttle valve(s)...
A mal-functioning ignition advancer...
Voltage problem effecting spark/combustion.
I doubt that it's a sticking throttle plate. A plate can stick or be binding but you can usually see a problem by checking them for smooth operation when you have the carbs in your hands. Only you know if they are operating smoothly.
An ignition advancer can fail too. There are a few designs out there. Some better than others. I've never had a problem with the older mechanical units, such as used on my '79, and the newer '80's models seem even more reliable. I just mention it because if the rotor that contains the sensors/magnets starts to slip or spin separately from the shaft, the ignition spark will be erratic and it has the same effect on combustion as a very lean mixture. Erratic sparking will cause the rpm's to rise erratically and return slower than normal. Blipping the throttle can change how the rotor slips on the shaft and the degree of the problem changes too. The old Martek ignitions used rotors that were held by a single set screw that often came loose. My bike had one of these and when it came loose the idle jumped around and acted similar to what yours is doing. One moment the bike was fine, the next moment it was having a problem. It took me a while to figure out what was going on. I don't know if your ignition advancer is failing, but taking off the cover and checking the advance action SEVERAL times under different rpm's should be a good enough test to see how it's operating. Normally, the advancers are reliable. But I only mention it as a possibility, no matter if it's not that common a problem on your model.
Most likely possibility is an intake leak. Intake leaks can sometimes be very constant in how they effect performance. Other times they can "change" and get worse or better...for awhile. Your description makes me think intake leak, but it's up to you to eliminate any chance of that. What have you done as far as intake leaks are concerned?
Lastly, voltage problems, low or high, can cause all kinds of strange problems, as we all know. A lot of electrical related trouble shooting is difficult to understand. I know 17 volts, as you have, is a serious problem. That must be fixed. I believe you said you have a replacement reg/rec that's working fine? I think you should install it and check all the electrical connections as I said before and re-test. If your voltages are as your manual/Stator Papers say they should be, then you know any problem isn't related to high/low voltage or poor connections.

[UncleMike]

Pat's going to come over sometime soon and help me diagnose the electrical problem, so I won't bug you again until then.

As for intake leaks, I have replaces all eight boots with brand new OEM, I have replaces the seal on the airbox filter lid, I have replaced the clamps between the airbox and the secondary airbox because one wasn't closing all the way, and I have done the spray test multiple times.

Not sure where else to look.

Thanks,

~Mike