How to avoid Starter Clutch Disaster Modification

[posplayr]

Option #2 Implementation

OK I implemented Option #2 because it is the easiest for me to do and I don't have to rewire the harness and I got a chance to clean the starter button and kill switch as well.

Step one: remove the right hand control switch, disassemble it and pull out the mini-harness between the kill switch and the push button. Shown here is the stock guts of my 81GS750EX right hand switch.




Step #2 after identifying what is what, you heat the solder on the two wires that are attached to the button next to the yellow green wire. You will recognize this yellow/Green wire as the one that goes to the starter solenoid. If you study the wiring you will also realize that there is a solid orange wire (from the harness). This wire is basically the direct battery voltage but through the ignition switch.

The kill switch switches this voltage and then powers the starter button. We are removing this switched power from the starter button to power the button from the solid orange wire. You might notice that the two orange/white wires attached to the button are actually just one wire with the insulation stripped. You will have to cover this with some electrical tape or cut the wire to slide a piece of shrink tubing over it and re solder.



OK step three and the final step is to now power the starter button directly from the solid orange wire coming from the ignition. I used a blue wire so it was obvious what I did. Note i also added electrical tape to the bare piece of wire. One end is sistered up onto the solid orange side of the kill switch. The other side goes to where the two wires (orange/White) was connected.




Final result after reassembly is that you have all of the exactly same stock functionality except with the key on, you can crank the starter without energizing the coils. (by having the kill switch off). You can also do as normal, turn on the ignition, turn on the kill switch and the bike will crank as normal.

If you want to take the precaution to avoid kick back, then

a.) Ignition Key on
b.) Kill switch off
c.) Crank with the starter button
d.) after two or three revolutions switch on the kill switch.

This is basically an implementation of option #2 but unlike option #1 only requires wiring changes in the switch and not anywhere in the harness. Also stock functionality is retained and the engine can not be cranked with the key off, but the kill switch can be controlled to only energizer the coils when wanted and independent of starter activation.

For option #3 I was was trying to automate the process using a variation of the coil relay mod, even though there are more sophisticated methods. The delay make on relay could work, I have found some that are between $20-$35 in electronics surplus stores. After playing with this it seems like having an operator to do it is better as we can adjust the timing to what is going on rather than relying on a one delay fits all situations.

I'm going to use this mod on my GS750 for a while to see how it works and will report back.

Posplayr

P.S To clean the contacts i used some Jasco Metal etch and a Q-tip, then Q-tiped with water , air dryed and added dialetric grease to the switch and the button contacts.

[posplayr]

isleoman

SAFETY INTERLOCK INPUT- You can keep your side stand safety switch functional or hook up a theft prevention switch, or activate a shift lever kill for road racing.

You could use your kickstand safety interlock to disable the Dyna 2000 ignition/coils and then kick up the stand as soon as you are ready to go and the bike will hit and off you go .


Sorry small joke. I think I would try option #2 as i described instead

Posplayr

[srsupertrap]

Re: Posplayr Implementation

Excellent write up, I guess I know what I am doing this afternoon. I wonder if this Thread should/can be copied to the Performance Section? I am sure I am not the only dummy who would benefit . . .

Thanks

[Steve]

You could use your kickstand safety interlock to disable the Dyna 2000 ignition/coils ...

Do some GSs actually kill the bike with the stand down?

My wife's '82 850L only turns on a light in the spdeedometer. 8-[

I would think that it would make it awkward to start and warm up the bike while donning appropriate gear.

.

[posplayr]

Steve

I was joking about that mod, there are already three switches on the handlebars to work with. The visualization of kicking the kick stand up to activate the ignition coils to start the motor is was struck me funny :-D

I hope RapidRay does not return from and enjoyable weekend in horror to see his switch idea so maligned.

I put this on the top of my priority list as I have had to go through the ordeal of getting a GS1100 rotor hub off ; in comparison the GS750 rotor virtually just fell off. If I get my new harness for my GS1100ED I dont want to have to chop the harness. A sacrificial switch is much better in my book.

I updated with an overview in the first post.


Posplayr

[Matchless]

Hi Posplayr,
Thats definitely an excellent guide. I hope that those who do the wiring mod post the results as this may help with automating the process.

I have doodled up a small diagram for a small electronic module that can do all of this automatically. Its still in beta design phase and I only did it to get all the thoughts together about what it is supposed to do. This will then also include the coil relay mod at the same time.

If you are interested I can email it to you, just remember it is still beta, not tested, not final, maybe even has some oversight in it. As there are still one or two things that are not final, but I need to put one together first and do some bench testing. I will appreciate any inputs or ideas. I am not an electronics fundi so my approach may be a bit old fashioned.

[posplayr]

Matchless

I have doodled up a small diagram for a small electronic module

There are many ways to accomplish delay; I was trying to avoid epoxy covered bugs (upside down IC's) and the like. There are plenty of switches out there. It is a matter of finding something suitable:

* extended temperature range (-40 to +85 degC)
*1-10 sec delay
* with a built in 5 amp capacity relay
* "power on make delay".

Here are various DIY schematics
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Bill_Bowden/page2.htm


Power-On Time Delay Relay


Here's a power-on time delay relay circuit that takes advantage of the emitter/base breakdown voltage of an ordinary bi-polar transistor. The reverse connected emitter/base junction of a 2N3904 transistor is used as an 8 volt zener diode which creates a higher turn-on voltage for the Darlington connected transistor pair. Most any bi-polar transistor may be used, but the zener voltage will vary from about 6 to 9 volts depending on the particular transistor used. Time delay is roughly 7 seconds using a 47K resistor and 100uF capacitor and can be reduced by reducing the R or C values. Longer delays can be obtained with a larger capacitor, the timing resistor probably shouldn't be increased past 47K. The circuit should work with most any 12 volt DC relay that has a coil resistance of 75 ohms or more. The 10K resistor connected across the supply provides a discharge path for the capacitor when power is turned off and is not needed if the power supply already has a bleeder resistor.

http://www.circuitdb.com/show.php?cid=25

http://www.aaroncake.net/circuits/relaytim2.asp

http://www.aaroncake.net/circuits/relaytim.asp

http://www.tkk.fi/Misc/Electronics/circuits/ampdelay.html

I'm still looking for a source for some cheap surplus delay on relay. Most seem to be VAC and make on break delay prices start around $25 and up. I have found a fixxed 1 sec delay and maybe that is all that is required for about $20.

Still looking for the links now.

Posplayr

[posplayr]

Option #4 progress update

I just ordered 4 of these. $17.50 a piece. There are still 12 left. I looked on Ebay and you might be able to find something instead. I like new matching parts for modification and this seems to fit the bill although the temperature range is a little low for under the gas tank (+55 deg C is 131 degF). Might have to locate near the starter solenoid; will check it out how hot it gets towards the back of the gas tank.

It is DPDT so it will nicely integrate with the dual coils and provide the coil relay mod in a single part.

Edit: A little tricker than I thought. I'm hoping to only have to use one additional relay.

Posplayr
Potter & Brumfield CUH-42-30010 24 VDC Time Delay Relay, DPDT 11 Amp $17.50

http://www.skycraftsurplus.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1419

You can find the spec sheet here:
Compact Time Delay Relay


Case: Enclosed
Contact Configuration: DPDT, 2 Form C
Coil: DC
Info: Time Delay on Operate; 1.0 SEC to 10 SEC Use External Resistor
Terminals: 0.187 Push On
Coil Voltage: 24
Poles: 2
Contact Rating: 11 Amp 240 VAC, 1/3 HP 120 VAC
RoHS/ELV Compiance History: Not ELV/RoHS compliant
Approved Standards: CSA Certified, UL Recognized

Environmental Data

Temperature Range: Storage:

-55°C to +85°C.

Operating:

-10°C to +55°C.

Contact Data @ 25

°C

Arrangements:

2 Form C (DPDT).

Material:

Silver-cadmium oxide alloy.

Rating:

10A @ 30VDC or 277VAC, resistive; 1/2 HP @ 250VAC;

1/3 HP @ 120VAC.

Expected Mechanical Life:

10 million operations.

Expected Electrical Life:

100,000 operations, min., at rated load.

Initial Dielectric Strength

Between Open Contacts:

500V rms, 60 Hz.

Between All Other Conductors:

500V rms, 60 Hz.

Input Data @ 25

°C

Voltage:

24 & 120VAC and 12 & 24VDC.

Power Requirement: AC Types:

Typically less than 3 VA.

DC Types:

Typically less than 3 W.

Transient Protection:

Yes.

Reverse Voltage Protection:

Yes.

[Matchless]

Yes,
That looks like a good proposition! Getting something like that out here is just about impossible and our high exchange rates and shipping will cost an arm and a leg. Makes experimenting an expensive game.
Please keep us/me in the loop as to your progress and tests.
I have just had an equipment delivery for a project that is long overdue and as said earlier this will have to go on the back burner for me at least for a while.
P.S. I actually looked at that same timer on the web by Bill Bowden and used his concept to see if a usable item can be made, but a reliable proven item is always much better.
Hope you get it sorted.

[posplayr]

Matchless

I updated the first post with new schematics, it was a bit of a twister but I think it should work. I will test this circuit when the parts arrive. I had to add the second relay and two diodes. The first relay is for control with some diode anding logic to control the output relay that incorporates the ignition coil modification.

http://www.posplayr.100megsfree3.com...20Mod_RevC.pdf


I'll do the timing diagram and install pictures once the design is verified as well.

Posplayr

If you can think of an easier way, let me know. This is on the back burner now till I get the parts.

[Matchless]

Nice compilation you put together! I am off to bed now and have printed a copy, will check it out, its midnight here and after studying a Kenwood manual my head is spinning!

PS. The relay you referred to says 24VDC some work down to less than 12V, but not all.

[posplayr]

Crap

Yea, I got the wrong relays; I guess prototyping is expensive even on this side of the pond. Drat it only works down to 20V. OK resume the search.


Edit, here is teh correct one from Digikey for $141.52

http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/760446-relay-time-delay-dpdt-10a-12vdc-clh-41-20120.html

Edit:

OK I found these for $7.50 a peice. I dont know what they are can't find a data sheet but they appear correct??

http://www.skycraftsurplus.com/index...MMP=1013718494



3.5 - 25.6 VDC Relay, SPDT 1 Amp 12 - 280 VAC Case: Enclosed
Contact Configuration: SPST
Coil: DC
Info: Solid State Time Delay, 0.1 to 10 Seconds
Terminals: PC Socket
Coil Voltage: 3.5 - 25.6 VDC
Poles: 1
Contact Rating: 1 Amp 12 - 280 VAC
Potter & Brumfield OAT-10010S


Pos

[Steve]

Are you just looking for an SPST (or SPDT) relay that is rated for constant duty?
Try this one from Parts Express.

.

[Steve]

I was joking about that mod, there are already three switches on the handlebars to work with.

Well, I had to ask because there are GSs newer than the ones around our house that I don't know about, and my Wing has a rather convoluted interlock system.
It will start in neutral without pulling the clutch, but if it's in gear you have to pull the lever.
If it is in any gear but neutral, the engine will die if you put down the side stand.
It also will not start if the reverse lever is engaged.
The '88-'94 models would allow the starter to operate if the kill switch was off. That was changed in '95 so the starter would not work with the kill switch off.

I just did not know if Suzuki had adopted any of these items. 8-[

.

[posplayr]

Steve

I had ordered this one over looking the fact that it was 24V rather than 12V (Matchless pointed this out). It takes 20V to activate the 24 V so it wont work on 12 v systems. I'm looking for a relay with a "delay before make"


Potter & Brumfield CUH-42-30010 24 VDC Time Delay Relay, DPDT 11 Amp $17.50

http://www.skycraftsurplus.com/index...OD&ProdID=1419

Check out the timing diagram in the spec sheet here:

Compact Time Delay Relay

There are a ton of 24V and 120/240VAC time delay relays but very few 12V ones.

I have some on order but I'm not sure if they have the correct functionality $7.50 a piece. compared to what is typically $50-60 surplus and $100+ retail.

Posplayr