Rectifier/Regulator replacement list

[Ghostgs1]

Hi Roger, Just to confirm, the 75540 is a 3 phase and will work on our bikes, I helped a friend put one on a 450A. His was only $20. The disadvantage is that they are huge compared to the original, so you have to find a new mounting location. If the series model really is a series type that would be a good improvement over the original style. I know the CE601 definitely is a series type, but it is also bulky. Ray
,

[salty_monk]

That's the problem... Knowing if they really are series type.

I bought a "series" regulator (not this one) that turned out to be a shunt, if Posplayr hadn't been handy to test it with his scope I would have had no way to know....

I (I bought it as an experiment, "called the guys bluff" if you like... )

Be good if these were series though as the price is much better than CD/Compuserve

[Normk]

Here's a question regarding voltage regulation in general:

Several references here seem to prefer "series" regulators over "shunt" regulators but the electronics field people tell me that "shunt" type are to be preferred.

Not arguing with the position taken by either reference but simply curious as to the reasons. Why do we see this apparent difference in preference?

That's the problem... Knowing if they really are series type.

I bought a "series" regulator (not this one) that turned out to be a shunt, if Posplayr hadn't been handy to test it with his scope I would have had no way to know....

I (I bought it as an experiment, "called the guys bluff" if you like... )

Be good if these were series though as the price is much better than CD/Compuserve

[Normk]

Sorry to move further off topic but am hoping someone can help in identifying this VRR given by a friend.

The following is printed onto the potting compound at rear:
179F.3.2-7
SMD0804 D13

The wires are:
(3) yellow into the round plug which are stator wires (confirmed in operation)

(1) Red into the round plug which is + output (confirmed)

The above (4) wires are female spade lug connectors.

(1) Black, longer wire, which terminates in a 6 mm round connector to ground (also confirmed)

The only reference found on the net indicates an ATV but my friend told me it came from a late 1970's to mid-1980's Kawasaki KX650.

Thoughts?

[salty_monk]

Here's a question regarding voltage regulation in general:

Several references here seem to prefer "series" regulators over "shunt" regulators but the electronics field people tell me that "shunt" type are to be preferred.

Not arguing with the position taken by either reference but simply curious as to the reasons. Why do we see this apparent difference in preference?

You need to read the mass of info posted by Posplayr. Essentially it's to do with heat generated in the Stator.
The series opens circuit, the shunt shorts and the stator heats up.

The only possible thing I have seen written against the series design other than price is that a series failure might not fail safe and could result in a huge voltage figure being generated damaging all the electronics. I am unsure if the Compuserve etc units have some kind of protection for this or not but I'd like to find out...

[Matchless]

I finally confirmed something for myself that has been discussed quite a bit. Why did only Suzuki use the different colour wires for the AC from the alternator to the regulator?
This had something to do with the AC phase that is switched in only when the headlight switch is on.

I opened up a original 1980's Suzuki regulator made by Nippondenso. The white/red phase did not have any regulation, although the regulator was built for the SCR it was not fitted. The white/red wire is also the phase to the headlight.
I am assuming that this was a cost saving factor at the time.

By not regulating all three phases they had to ensure that the unregulated phase was always switched via the headlight switch.
I wonder if it finally did not turn out to be a more expensive option in the end as they had to stick to their special coloured AC wires.

The 30 year old insides gave some interesting clues as to why they are not so reliable. The aluminum casing had a heavy layer of white corrosion between the heat sink and the potting compound, surely not a great help in dissipating heat! This is due to time and poor potting compound used.
The potting compound was sort of crystallized and could be broken out easily with a screwdriver. It may have deteriorated over 30 years or was not of high quality. It looked good on the outside though.
One of the diodes was carbonized, the lead was burned away. Another had a seemingly dry joint where the lead was soldered to a common bar.
The diodes and SCRr's did not seem to be very substantial and may be of a low current rating, but this is just a guess as there are no markings.
The voltage control circuit was not IC controlled and expected as per the common technology of the time.

Just some useless information for those who like to know about these things!

[Normk]

Interesting post, Matchless, thanks. As you stated, not likely much concrete value to this kind of stuff but it is interesting. On the other hand, sometimes someone from a related field opens up a whole new realm of understanding out of just this kind of information. That's one of the most interesting aspects of web groups.

Did you take any photos of the autopsy?

Your mention of corrosion under the potting compound was surprising from both a failure cause and obvious if one had considered the possibility, which I had not.

This makes me wonder if there might be some value in the use of a wax based product such as LPS or Fluid Film as a preventative sealant onto the edges of the potting compound and around the wiring grommet?

I'm wondering if anyone has noticed a failure rate trend relating to the UK?

The moisture (and possibly) road chemicals there create a corrosion problem for components such as the Nippon Densu alternators used on Honda ST1100 as well as the Gold Wing alternators of both types. The issue there is the corrosion and swelling of the stator core which can split the brush-end housing of the alternator. These problems are virtually unheard of on this side of the pond.

If there is a high rate of VRR failures in UK or other moister areas as compared with drier ones then there might be some indication of sealing issues as a failure cause.....

[mforbes]

Could be if its the CE-602. I bought one that looked like this but it was a shunt. The CE-602 regulates. I pulled my stator case off my GS1100G 1982 after riding over 3000 miles. The stator looks like I just installed a new one. The CE-602 works great. I have a voltage meter and while cruising its registering 13.8. At idle of 650 rpm, the meter reads 12.3 with lights on. Almost 13 with lights off. I can touch the regulator after a ride where I heat my fingers on the stock one.

I may be mistaken because I refuse to work on Harleys but friends who do have told me that they use a two wire (single phase) stator output. Someone will confirm or disprove this which is part of the reason for posting.

The other is that a two wire unit is not compatable with a 3 phase stator.

Some of the Harleys are reported to produce 40+ amps. so that would be more that sufficient VVR capacity. 5 wires so could be three stator wires, ground and DC output....

[Normk]

13.8 volts cruising, that would be with the battery completely charged?

13.8 volts will provide a reasonable charge rate but nothing to write home about as it takes almost that much voltage to reach saturation/surface charge of 13.2 volts. I'm wondering about the temperatures when you read these values. If it is 80 F then I would expect to see lower charge voltage than at 60 F, for example.

What point is the voltmeter sampling? Is there a voltage drop between this point and battery positive or VRR output lead?


12.3 volts at idle with lights on is lower than I like to see as you will be pulling a significant discharge (sorry but couldn't sleep so brain not able to estimate the discharge rate) but as it's at idle, that's what the battery is for. I set idle higher to avoid discharge at idle if this can be accomodated without other issues such as run-on but that's just a matter of taste.

Haven't installed a voltmeter onto Suzie (GS850) and likely won't as collector status discourages farkles so am content with periodic sampling but do miss the meter as like to keep an eye on charging. Maybe there's a solution which can be unobtrusive?

The fact that the VRR is cool to the touch is reassuring as I also don't like to have electronics cooking. It sounds like the VRR is not a ground shunt type or there would be more heating effect?

Still haven't been ambitious enough to put the oscilloscope onto some VRR units to see whether they are shunting to ground, shunting stator, or open circuiting stator leads. Anyone have a link to wave form examples?

Also wondering if any of the newer regulators use a charge maintain strategy such as that of RV converter chargers? I'm becoming too lazy, it seems, to do projects such as voltage and current ramping studies but maybe someone else has?

Could be if its the CE-602. I bought one that looked like this but it was a shunt. The CE-602 regulates. I pulled my stator case off my GS1100G 1982 after riding over 3000 miles. The stator looks like I just installed a new one. The CE-602 works great. I have a voltage meter and while cruising its registering 13.8. At idle of 650 rpm, the meter reads 12.3 with lights on. Almost 13 with lights off. I can touch the regulator after a ride where I heat my fingers on the stock one.

[bwringer]

Anyone know of a good place to order the Furukawa connectors? I searched and couldn't find a place besides some site with "beaver" in it's name. When I tried to purchase through paypal, it tried to charge me over $900 in shipping. Might be a scam. Good thing I didn't click send payment.

No, it's definitely NOT a scam.

http://easternbeaver.com is 110% legitimate. The owner is an Oregon State grad living in Japan, hence the "Beaver" mascot. Poor guy really didn't think things through when naming his company, I think.

Anyway, he's been around for a long time and sells VERY high quality stuff. I've purchased from him a few times. And as you found, he's probably the only aftermarket source for small quantities of OEM Japanese electrical connectors.

Shipping costs from Easter Beaver are very reasonable as well. Japanese mail is extremely efficient and inexpensive.

The reason you saw that crazy shipping charge is that your order hadn't met the minimum order amount (I think it's only $10 or $15). His shopping cart software can't enforce a minimum order amount, so he set it up to charge a huge amount for shipping when it's below the minimum. Hopefully this will act as a flag for purchasers, but it sounds like you didn't find the explanation. (If you've never dealt with e-commerce software, trust me -- this sort of maddening thing is quite common.)

Anyway, EasternBeaver.com is legitimate and an excellent vendor. I've always gotten my stuff in less than a week.

[cowboyup3371]

Eastern Beaver has a $20 minimum order (STATES THIS ON HIS SITE) so yea, the shipping charges will look outrageous until you get above that and then settles down.

[salty_monk]

Yes another thumbs up for Jim at Eastern Beaver...

I agree he could have picked his name a little better but then again maybe that's the whole point... probably a grad school "in joke".

[Matchless]

Did you take any photos of the autopsy?

Your mention of corrosion under the potting compound was surprising from both a failure cause and obvious if one had considered the possibility, which I had not.

Normk,
Here is a photo of the internals. I have already scraped off most of the white corrosion unfortunately.


I assume the potting compound used 30 years ago was not as advanced as what is available now. I have tried to disect a ZX12 regulator, but neither heat or any solvent has any affect on it. Its just like concrete.

[Billy Ricks]

Yes another thumbs up for Jim at Eastern Beaver...

I agree he could have picked his name a little better but then again maybe that's the whole point... probably a grad school "in joke".

When I lived in the Rio Grande Valley I sponsored a softball team for years. I named the team the Beavers and our slogan was "Fear the Beaver". I had no trouble getting the best players in the league to play for my team. After that another bunch of guys I played for on another night named their team the Red Snappers.

[Normk]

Interesting photos, Matchless!

A sample of one is almost meaningless in so far as forming any rational conclusion but the implications certainly are attention grabbing! Thanks very much for posting the photos.

My impression of South Africa is that the climate is quite dry with lower corrosion than in most of Europe or Canada/USA. Would this be correct?

I don't thiink anywhere above the tide line is drier or less corrosive than a UK road so the possibility that corrosives could be leaking into VRR units there is more than attention grabbing! ST1100 owners will be familiar with the UK corrosion of swing arms, alternators, etc. so this effect is to be expected in other areas.

How can we obtain more data? A simple request for people to do a post mortem on VRR units when the opportunity arises will take a long time to provide data but it's the best suggestion. I will be spraying mine and all others which I encounter with a sealer such as a wax based, LPS or Fluid Film in the hopes that there may be some benefit to sealing.