Shaft or Chain... that's the question...

[noobie]

[QUOTE=bwringer;1044107]So you have no experience with GS shafties, yet you're willing to make a few general guesses based on a few inferior and unrelated examples? Sheesh...

Inferior? You're calling the Goldwing INFERIOR!!!???

[reddirtrider]

So you have no experience with GS shafties, yet you're willing to make a few general guesses based on a few inferior and unrelated examples? Sheesh...

Again, Suzuki was the first manufacturer to do shaft drive right, followed closely as you noted by Honda -- the Nighthawk/Sabre/Magna setup was pretty decent too, although IIRC they had more of a problem with jacking effects. And it sounds like the Honda setup makes noise, whereas the Suzuki GS shaft drive system does not.



This debate thing is kinda fun... been a while since we've had a good spleen-clearing shaft/chain kerfluffle.

Now, let's talk torque wrenches!

I've never ridden a shaft and doubt I ever will. To tell you the truth, I've pretty much abandoned street riding all together. I have far more fun playing in the dirt and shafts just don't cut it there (well, maybe on logging roads, but my zrx200 will go there too).

Anyway, fun conversation.

[bwringer]

Inferior? You're calling the Goldwing INFERIOR!!!???

Honestly, I forgot all about the GW, and I've never ridden one. And you didn't mention it anyway.

Tell ya what -- toss me the keys to your GW and I'll submit a full report in a few days comparing and contrasting the GW shaft drive system with the Suzuki GS system.

[noobie]

Honestly, I forgot all about the GW, and I've never ridden one. And you didn't mention it anyway.

Tell ya what -- toss me the keys to your GW and I'll submit a full report in a few days comparing and contrasting the GW shaft drive system with the Suzuki GS system.

Sure... if you come to Slovenia and give me your car for a few days

Okay, seriously now: what does it mean that a bike jacks? Throughout this discussion I've read several times about shafties jacking etc..

I've never ridden the Goldie hard to notice anything peculiar because... well, because it's obviously a big, heavy bike, with thin tires and has the aerodynamics of a barn door - thanks to the Windjammer IV fairing and BMW side cases and top case. Great bike for touring (though my knees start to hurt after a few hours), but definitely not something to throw from one corner into the next or to throttle it like a sports bike.

I don't ride hard, I like to live and I like my money (the traffic tickets here are horrible) so I always ride according to speed limits and never push the bike to notice how it responds when close to the limit.

And I'm really curious: has anyone ever knee-slided with a GS and not fallen?

[noobie]

OK, guys, I didn't realize it was a tongue-in-cheek comment, so I'm sorry that I over-reacted.

Noobie, believe it or not, I agree with your comments about Moto Guzzi. I owned a Guzzi between 1979 and 86. After the third u-joint failed on it, at only 80,000 miles, I decided to look for a more reliable motorcycle. That's when I bought my first GS850G.

I also agree with your views on BMW's.

Shafty Nick Diaz
Middletown, MD

Nothing to apologize for, Gramps, just take care of yourself. Getting upset and raising your blood pressure isn't good for someone getting up there in years

Well, Guzzi and BMW were in the competition for which I'd buy. Joined tech groups for them and for Laverda 750 Sport too and the daily-new requests for help and messages with something breaking down turned me away from them.

Have been on Japs ever since and except for the mentioned problems with leakage of oil with shafties, I like them the best and didn't have problems (after we restored them of course ). Plus the parts are cheap and easy to get even for old bikes.

[Steve]

Okay, seriously now: what does it mean that a bike jacks? Throughout this discussion I've read several times about shafties jacking etc..

The pnenomenon known as "jacking" is a result of the effects of the different drive systems. On a chain-drive bike, when the engine is accellerated, the countershaft pulls on the top of the drive chain, which then pulls on the rear sprocket. Since the swing arm is of a fixed length, the tension applied above it will try to swing it UP. Moving the swingarm UP will make the back of the bike go DOWN, causing a squat effect. When the bike is accellerated hard from a stop, this squat effect is enhanced by weight transfer because more of the bike/rider weight is applied to the rear wheel.

On a shaft-drive bike, the driveshaft is inline with the swingarm (actually, it's inside it). It is rotating and drives a gear in the final drive unit that is attached to the rear wheel. When it tries to rotate the wheel forward, torque reaction tries to rotate the swingarm backward. Since the rear-most end of the swingarm can't go down (it's anchored to the wheel), it lifts the other end, which is attached to the frame of the bike. This makes the back of the bike lift a bit when you hit the throttle.

As you have gathered in the many posts above, the 'jacking' or lifting effect is more pronounced in some bikes. I have ridden and owned several different shaft-drive bikes in the past and have to admit that the GS line shows the least jacking of them all. I don't really notice any jacking on my Wing, but let's look at the facts: there is a LOT of weight for the swingarm to try to lift, and in its relatively mild state of tune, there isn't a whole lot of power from the engine to force the issue, so it just turns the wheel.

For those whe like to ride aggressively, it takes a different technique in the corners. If you find that you are going a little too fast into a corner on a chain-drive bike, you simply let off the throttle and the rear of the bike lifts a bit, giving you a bit more clearance for cornering. If you do that with a shaft-drive bike, the rear will drop, giving you less clearance, and you already don't have enough. The proper technique for fast corning with a shafty is to apply a little throttle and also apply some braking at the same time. This will maintain cornering clearance but still scrub off a little speed.

I have never met the man, but I have it on good authority that Brian Wringer is the master at dispelling any myths that shafties won't corner quickly.

.

[noobie]

The pnenomenon known as "jacking" is a result of the effects of the different drive systems. snipped.

Hey! Thank you very much for the explanation, Steve! It's something I've been really curious about.

[Dave8338]

...and IF you want to experience the "jacking effect" to the fullest extent, hop on a stock suspended Yamaha Virago ( with mono shock) and be prepared to be slightly unnerved as it WILL bound its' way through the gears.

...or get tired of that feeling and completely scrap that suspension (and everything else) and build to suit.

[koolaid_kid]

...I have never met the man, but I have it on good authority that Brian Wringer is the master at dispelling any myths that shafties won't corner quickly. .

Just think what he could do on a real (i.e. chain driven) bike!!!

[awjonesii]

My GS850L Shaft is just as quiet if not quieter than my TL1000 chain driven bike. And I'm not sure what this "jacking" is all about or the strategy in the corners when riding hard. I use the same techniques on my 850L that I do on my TL and I would have to guess that a few people here would say that I move rather swiftly through the corners.

Just my observation. Don't get me wrong, they both ride different, but my technique in throttle control, gear management, and braking is the same. I don't feel that anyone interested in a GS would be disappointed in either a chain driven or shaft driven GS.

[Jethro]

Shaft drive bikes... bah! If I wanted a tractor, I'd buy a Farmall!

[TheCafeKid]

My GS850L Shaft is just as quiet if not quieter than my TL1000 chain driven bike. And I'm not sure what this "jacking" is all about or the strategy in the corners when riding hard. I use the same techniques on my 850L that I do on my TL and I would have to guess that a few people here would say that I move rather swiftly through the corners.

Just my observation. Don't get me wrong, they both ride different, but my technique in throttle control, gear management, and braking is the same. I don't feel that anyone interested in a GS would be disappointed in either a chain driven or shaft driven GS.

There's a slight different feel, IMO, but not so noticeable it becomes off putting or scary by anymeans. I rarely hit the brakes anymore, so lift or squat doesnt really come into play for me. Al, at WV, i wanna pick your brain on that TL...I ALMOST bought one before i bought the ES, I just dunno if i can deal with a thumper...

[awjonesii]

There's a slight different feel, IMO, but not so noticeable it becomes off putting or scary by anymeans. I rarely hit the brakes anymore, so lift or squat doesnt really come into play for me. Al, at WV, i wanna pick your brain on that TL...I ALMOST bought one before i bought the ES, I just dunno if i can deal with a thumper...

I will likely be bringing the GS, but I still have made up my mind completely. If I do bring it down, you are more than welcome to take a jog on it if you would like.

[noobie]

My GS850L Shaft is just as quiet if not quieter than my TL1000 chain driven bike. And I'm not sure what this "jacking" is all about or the strategy in the corners when riding hard. I use the same techniques on my 850L that I do on my TL and I would have to guess that a few people here would say that I move rather swiftly through the corners.

Just my observation. Don't get me wrong, they both ride different, but my technique in throttle control, gear management, and braking is the same. I don't feel that anyone interested in a GS would be disappointed in either a chain driven or shaft driven GS.

You own a "Widow maker"? How does it ride? Do you have the steering-stabilisator built in or are you without it? How does the rotary suspension perform? Or did you replace with regular? There was a good looking silver TLS in Austria before I bought the Virago and for a decent price too, but then when I did a little research on the net I read a lot about it's supposed dangerous handling, the frame cracking because it wasn't grown up to the vibrations of the V2, etc.. So I'd really like a report from an owner: how does it really handle and are all those reviews exaggerated?

[awjonesii]

The suspension on the bike was "ok", if you weigh less than 160lbs. I upgraded the front to racetech 1.0kg and the rear has a bitubo racing shock now. I have the stock SS installed. Changed out the front brake lines to Galfer SS. If you take a look around www.tlzone.net you can form your own opinion. As far as frames cracking - never heard of it nor has anyone mentioned it on the forums.

As far as overall handling - the bike handles wonderfully, and the power range is ridiculous, lots and lots of torque. The bike is just a lot of fun to ride.