Shaft or Chain... that's the question...

...I have never met the man, but I have it on good authority that Brian Wringer is the master at dispelling any myths that shafties won't corner quickly. .

Just think what he could do on a real (i.e. chain driven) bike!!!

[Dave8338]

...and IF you want to experience the "jacking effect" to the fullest extent, hop on a stock suspended Yamaha Virago ( with mono shock) and be prepared to be slightly unnerved as it WILL bound its' way through the gears.

...or get tired of that feeling and completely scrap that suspension (and everything else) and build to suit.

The pnenomenon known as "jacking" is a result of the effects of the different drive systems. snipped.

Hey! Thank you very much for the explanation, Steve! It's something I've been really curious about.

[Steve]

Okay, seriously now: what does it mean that a bike jacks? Throughout this discussion I've read several times about shafties jacking etc..

The pnenomenon known as "jacking" is a result of the effects of the different drive systems. On a chain-drive bike, when the engine is accellerated, the countershaft pulls on the top of the drive chain, which then pulls on the rear sprocket. Since the swing arm is of a fixed length, the tension applied above it will try to swing it UP. Moving the swingarm UP will make the back of the bike go DOWN, causing a squat effect. When the bike is accellerated hard from a stop, this squat effect is enhanced by weight transfer because more of the bike/rider weight is applied to the rear wheel.

On a shaft-drive bike, the driveshaft is inline with the swingarm (actually, it's inside it). It is rotating and drives a gear in the final drive unit that is attached to the rear wheel. When it tries to rotate the wheel forward, torque reaction tries to rotate the swingarm backward. Since the rear-most end of the swingarm can't go down (it's anchored to the wheel), it lifts the other end, which is attached to the frame of the bike. This makes the back of the bike lift a bit when you hit the throttle.

As you have gathered in the many posts above, the 'jacking' or lifting effect is more pronounced in some bikes. I have ridden and owned several different shaft-drive bikes in the past and have to admit that the GS line shows the least jacking of them all. I don't really notice any jacking on my Wing, but let's look at the facts: there is a LOT of weight for the swingarm to try to lift, and in its relatively mild state of tune, there isn't a whole lot of power from the engine to force the issue, so it just turns the wheel.

For those whe like to ride aggressively, it takes a different technique in the corners. If you find that you are going a little too fast into a corner on a chain-drive bike, you simply let off the throttle and the rear of the bike lifts a bit, giving you a bit more clearance for cornering. If you do that with a shaft-drive bike, the rear will drop, giving you less clearance, and you already don't have enough. The proper technique for fast corning with a shafty is to apply a little throttle and also apply some braking at the same time. This will maintain cornering clearance but still scrub off a little speed.

I have never met the man, but I have it on good authority that Brian Wringer is the master at dispelling any myths that shafties won't corner quickly.

.

OK, guys, I didn't realize it was a tongue-in-cheek comment, so I'm sorry that I over-reacted.

Noobie, believe it or not, I agree with your comments about Moto Guzzi. I owned a Guzzi between 1979 and 86. After the third u-joint failed on it, at only 80,000 miles, I decided to look for a more reliable motorcycle. That's when I bought my first GS850G.

I also agree with your views on BMW's.

Shafty Nick Diaz
Middletown, MD

Nothing to apologize for, Gramps, just take care of yourself. Getting upset and raising your blood pressure isn't good for someone getting up there in years

Well, Guzzi and BMW were in the competition for which I'd buy. Joined tech groups for them and for Laverda 750 Sport too and the daily-new requests for help and messages with something breaking down turned me away from them.

Have been on Japs ever since and except for the mentioned problems with leakage of oil with shafties, I like them the best and didn't have problems (after we restored them of course ). Plus the parts are cheap and easy to get even for old bikes.

Honestly, I forgot all about the GW, and I've never ridden one. And you didn't mention it anyway.

Tell ya what -- toss me the keys to your GW and I'll submit a full report in a few days comparing and contrasting the GW shaft drive system with the Suzuki GS system.

Sure... if you come to Slovenia and give me your car for a few days

Okay, seriously now: what does it mean that a bike jacks? Throughout this discussion I've read several times about shafties jacking etc..

I've never ridden the Goldie hard to notice anything peculiar because... well, because it's obviously a big, heavy bike, with thin tires and has the aerodynamics of a barn door - thanks to the Windjammer IV fairing and BMW side cases and top case. Great bike for touring (though my knees start to hurt after a few hours), but definitely not something to throw from one corner into the next or to throttle it like a sports bike.

I don't ride hard, I like to live and I like my money (the traffic tickets here are horrible) so I always ride according to speed limits and never push the bike to notice how it responds when close to the limit.

And I'm really curious: has anyone ever knee-slided with a GS and not fallen?

[bwringer]

Inferior? You're calling the Goldwing INFERIOR!!!???

Honestly, I forgot all about the GW, and I've never ridden one. And you didn't mention it anyway.

Tell ya what -- toss me the keys to your GW and I'll submit a full report in a few days comparing and contrasting the GW shaft drive system with the Suzuki GS system.

So you have no experience with GS shafties, yet you're willing to make a few general guesses based on a few inferior and unrelated examples? Sheesh...

Again, Suzuki was the first manufacturer to do shaft drive right, followed closely as you noted by Honda -- the Nighthawk/Sabre/Magna setup was pretty decent too, although IIRC they had more of a problem with jacking effects. And it sounds like the Honda setup makes noise, whereas the Suzuki GS shaft drive system does not.



This debate thing is kinda fun... been a while since we've had a good spleen-clearing shaft/chain kerfluffle.

Now, let's talk torque wrenches!

I've never ridden a shaft and doubt I ever will. To tell you the truth, I've pretty much abandoned street riding all together. I have far more fun playing in the dirt and shafts just don't cut it there (well, maybe on logging roads, but my zrx200 will go there too).

Anyway, fun conversation.

[QUOTE=bwringer;1044107]So you have no experience with GS shafties, yet you're willing to make a few general guesses based on a few inferior and unrelated examples? Sheesh...

Inferior? You're calling the Goldwing INFERIOR!!!???

[bwringer]

... Not talking about the GS shaft system, because I have no experience with it, but shaft system in general. The only problem-and-leak-free shaft system I had experience till now was the Nighthawk's.

And every shaft produces a noise because of all the parts that are moving and turning, especially at high speed. I don't know what the GS's shafts are like, so either it's more noise-isolated or you just got used to the noise and don't hear it anymore, but I do know I hear the shaft on every shaft-bike I ride.

So you have no experience with GS shafties, yet you're willing to make a few general guesses based on a few inferior and unrelated examples? Sheesh...

Again, Suzuki was the first manufacturer to do shaft drive right, followed closely as you noted by Honda -- the Nighthawk/Sabre/Magna setup was pretty decent too, although IIRC they had more of a problem with jacking effects. And it sounds like the Honda setup makes noise, whereas the Suzuki GS shaft drive system does not.



This debate thing is kinda fun... been a while since we've had a good spleen-clearing shaft/chain kerfluffle.

OK, guys, I didn't realize it was a tongue-in-cheek comment, so I'm sorry that I over-reacted.

Noobie, believe it or not, I agree with your comments about Moto Guzzi. I owned a Guzzi between 1979 and 86. After the third u-joint failed on it, at only 80,000 miles, I decided to look for a more reliable motorcycle. That's when I bought my first GS850G.

I also agree with your views on BMW's.

Shafty Nick Diaz
Middletown, MD

No worries Nick, you old guys get cranky when the meat is too tough.
(I have no idea what that means, but it sounded good)

OK, guys, I didn't realize it was a tongue-in-cheek comment, so I'm sorry that I over-reacted.

Noobie, believe it or not, I agree with your comments about Moto Guzzi. I owned a Guzzi between 1979 and 86. After the third u-joint failed on it, at only 80,000 miles, I decided to look for a more reliable motorcycle. That's when I bought my first GS850G.

I also agree with your views on BMW's.

Shafty Nick Diaz
Middletown, MD

What shaft noise are you talking about? My GS's shaft drive is pretty much noiseless, as are all the others I've seen and ridden.

Also, what's all this leaking you're talking about? Mine has a whole buttload of miles with no leaks.

I think you may be confusing Suzuki's GS shaft drive system for BMW's "explode at random" system.

Not talking about the GS shaft system, because I have no experience with it, but shaft system in general. The only problem-and-leak-free shaft system I had experience till now was the Nighthawk's.

And every shaft produces a noise because of all the parts that are moving and turning, especially at high speed. I don't know what the GS's shafts are like, so either it's more noise-isolated or you just got used to the noise and don't hear it anymore, but I do know I hear the shaft on every shaft-bike I ride.

The Virago was a fantastic bike and if I find a 1100 for a good price I'll buy it again, but I could hear the shaft even over the open direct exhausts. And, yes, there was nothing wrong with the shaft and the oil was completely new (we put it in when buying the bike), it's just that a shaft produces noise. So much so and such a strange noise that I went to my bike-mechanic-uncle for him to see what the hell was wrong with the bike and have him tell me not to worry, it's just the shaft.

And, yup, shaft isn't completely-maintenance-free... you gotta change the oil and check the seals. Problem is if the PO-s never changed it and you buy such a bike and don't remember to immediately change it yourself. If that happens the shaft will seize and you'll count the damage in hundreds. IF you're lucky not to get physically hurt when that happens. On the other hand, with the chain there is always a danger of it falling apart and blocking your rear wheel, but if it's a quality chain and you maintain it, and was grafted together correctly then the danger of it falling apart is very small.

Final summary: both drive systems have a danger of failing and in the end it's all a matter of personal preference which one you want.

Or for beating chain guys over the head with..

I wonder what would hurt more in a fight, a drive shaft over the head or being whipped with a 630 chain.....

Before you'd even manage to lift, much less raise your heavy shaft over your head to attain torque to conk someone with it (and yes it has problems with torque there too ) the chain-guy would've already hit you thrice. And if he knew what he was doing he would've put you out of the fight with the first hit.

It's not the level of the pain, but it's where it hurts...

I suppose not one Moto Guzzi or BMW is a real motorcycle either, eh?

My friend, you picked two hells of bad examples.

Moto Guzzi? Some of the most unreliable motorcycles on the market. Sure, they're a symbol of social status and how much money you have with how expensive they are, but they're bottomless-money-pits when it comes to running them. Electrical problems, engine problems, shaft problems, electronic problems, fuel-system problems,... you name it and Italians have problems with it. All the time, not just occasionally.

Italians are the best designers out there, but when it comes to the build quality and reliability they're at the bottom of the ladder. Italy is our direct neighbor and we got a lot of Italian bikes here, Ducatis (know 4 guys with Ducatis, all new bikes and they all had to have them repaired in the first month of ownership... and if you want to change your bike under warranty, you'll have to PAY ADDITIONALLY for a new bike because Ducati won't exchange it bike-for-a-bike even if the bike is 1 week old and the problem is covered with warranty - happened with a guy who bought a new 1098 and had to give it back, to exchange it for a new one, because of a faulty fuel system... had to pay 3000 EUR for a new same bike even though his was only a month old...), Aprilias (total bottom), Moto Guzzis, Benellis, Moto Marinis,...

They've got two things in common: they're VERY expensive to buy AND to run and they're unreliable. And they have a drinking problem. The bikes, of course

BMWs on the other hand are known for their final drives being unreliable. Bwringer alredy mentioned the name of the phenomenon. Or, of one of the problems. It's not as well-publicized because BMW puts a lot of money into keeping it secret (plus there's also the BMW fans who out of loyalty won't admit it, much less spread it around - my other uncle is a BMW fan so I know the type), but they break down just as much as any other bike. Especially the shafts on the bigger models. BMW is an expensive and luxury mark, but it's got to mean something that you can't see a BMW car older than the E36 3-series on the road. While you see plenty of 25 and 30 years old Mercs. Ooops, wrong thread

Lastly: people, please calm down, this is a tongue-in-cheek affair, no need to get a stroke over it!

Or for beating chain guys over the head with..

I wonder what would hurt more in a fight, a drive shaft over the head or being whipped with a 630 chain.....

A chain reaches further. One more strike against the shaft.

[salty_monk]

Or for beating chain guys over the head with..

I wonder what would hurt more in a fight, a drive shaft over the head or being whipped with a 630 chain.....