Terminology

[Normk]

Many problems occur in communications because of different/incorrect use of terms. We used to feel like we were having to grudgingly drag information from many customers because of their use of incorrect terms and seeming reluctance to communicate what were the real concerns.


I propose a list of trade terminology in order to assist those with an interest:

Cranking: the act of causing the engine's crankshaft to revolve by application of electric starting/cranking motor, kick starter, pull start rope.

Starter: usually the electric starting motor whose function is to turn the engine crankshaft to facilitate engine operation. Note that this component has nothing to do with the ignition, fuel delivery system. In that regard, the "starter" does not cause the engine to start running. It simply rotates the engine's elements.

Ignition timing: the firing of the spark at the desired position of piston during the compression stroke. This is unlikely to be your engine's problem despite that the guy at the bar claims it to be. Engines seldom experience issues due to the timing "going off".

Relay: In electrical context this is a device which allows one circuit to switch another circuit. These can be used to allow a small capacity circuit to control a larger capacity one such as the small starter button circuit which avoids the need to run the large battery/starter cable through a huge switch which would need to be positioned for rider access.

A relay can allow multiple controls of a circuit and can be electro-mechanical or electronic in construction.

Starter relay: talk to an automotive, marine or truck technician and they will use the term "starter solenoid". They will understand the term "starter relay" to mean a small relay used in conjunction with the main starter relay. If one understands this, much confusion can be avoided.

Starter relay: a big relay which is used to control/switch the battery to the starting motor for cranking purposes.

Feel free to edit/improve and add. My intent is to share motive mechanical trade usage which may be different than that used in other fields. Post terms which need a definition and someone will fill in. (Hopefully)

Someone will correct if this is a poor way to handle but my suggestion is that we copy and past the list into our own post so that we have a listing without complication of divisions.

HIH

Norm

[Steve]

Feel free to edit/improve and add.

Maybe your second Starter Relay should be Starter Solenoid?

Also still trying to figure out what "Her Imperial Highness" (HIH) (<--click link) has to do with any of your posts.

Other than that, good stuff.

Too many times we have descriptions of "my bike won't start". We try to get them to tell us whether it's not cranking, cranking, but not firing or cranking, trying to fire, but not actually starting. Using a common list of terms might help.

.

.

[allojohn]

Also still trying to figure out what "Her Imperial Highness" (HIH) (<--click link) has to do with any of your posts.

.

More common is HTH - hope this helps

[drivera84]

good idea of a post, sometimes us newbies dont know excatly what is what...

thanks, and subscribed!

[Steve]

More common is HTH - hope this helps

It would help MORE if it were typed out, along with the rest of the post.

As you can see, I even put HIH into my Google search bar and posted one of the results. Hardly a conclusive result, hence the question.

Normk, and all the others, please use all the keys on your keyboard.
It is obvious that you are not using a mobile device, based on the amount of content in some of your posts, so "texting" shortcuts aren't really necessary.

.

[Normk]

Steve posted:
"Also still trying to figure out what "Her Imperial Highness" (HIH) (<--click link) has to do with any of your posts. "

I have lots of questions too: "Is a Dairy Queen a milkman in high heels?"

HIH gives me time off to post to web groups so don't wish to displease her. HIH is shorter than Rumpole's SWMBO.

Besides, I'm far more afraid of her than I am of you.

As for the contractions, I find it disquieting that people don't use their names here so some things we will have to live with or move on. Sometimes it is one, sometimes the other.

With that it is time to bring this thread to a close. Oops, thought I was on the basic electrical thread which was stretching out and becoming unwieldy. Scratch the close part! Is there a way to do strike through here?

Norm

[Normk]

Steve posted:

"Using a common list of terms might help."

This web group has a better means of using common references than most others I have used so a common list of terms might work more efficiently here than in other groups. It would be interesting to try and see.

It is distracting and drains energy to have to post for clarification and then re-examine the problems. Many very astute people find this to be too much effort after a time. From time to time I like to ask whether people have thought about why professionals (active or retired) so seldom post into their area of expertise. If they do, it typically doesn't last.

Her Royal Highness said I could post this,

Norm

Speaking of "HIH" and I am only leg pulling, maybe it would be easier to put that and my signature into the footer.... My objection to typing it out each time is....well, typing it out each time. It may not seem like much but I have thousands of posts between various web groups and it adds up. Thanks for the prod.

[keman]

Several of us use our real names. My user name is short for my full first name.

Hi, my name is Kemaneseandra. Keman for short!

[keman]

Cleaned carbs meaning the carbs have been cleaned per Nessism's tutorial.

[AJ]

Maybe your second Starter Relay should be Starter Solenoid?

Also still trying to figure out what "Her Imperial Highness" (HIH) (<--click link) has to do with any of your posts.

Other than that, good stuff.

Too many times we have descriptions of "my bike won't start". We try to get them to tell us whether it's not cranking, cranking, but not firing or cranking, trying to fire, but not actually starting. Using a common list of terms might help.

Ok, now I am confused. A starter RELAY is the small, solenoid-driven electric switch. The small current from the starter button energizes a small solenoid, closing a switch to drive high electric current to the starter motor. On a motorcycle, the starter motor is connected by a free-running clutch that only engages when the engine is stopped and the starter motor starts turning. The "sprag" clutch assembly is typically made with 3 large cylindrical bearings that lock in one direction and free run in the opposite direction.

A starter SOLENOID is used on automotive (and aircraft) starters. This combines the relay from the above with a bigger SOLENOID that moves the engagement gear onto the flywheel of the engine. As the gear fully engages, the solenoid also closes the switch for the high current drive, causing the starter motor to turn. The mechanism was the invention of Vincent Bendix, founder of the Bendix Corp., and was a huge advance in automotive technology. The mechanism is still referred to as a "bendix" among aviation mechanics. Now that I think about it, the bendix drive takes a good bit of current itself, and there is usually a separate starter relay for it in cars.

So in this sense, I think most motorcycles have a starter RELAY, but very few modern bikes have a SOLENOID.

For grins, I just checked the longitudinal engined Honda Goldwing and BMW K-bikes, both of which use a sprag clutch. Maybe the Ural or something like that uses a Bendix solenoid drive.

[allojohn]

It would help MORE if it were typed out, along with the rest of the post.

As you can see, I even put HIH into my Google search bar and posted one of the results. Hardly a conclusive result, hence the question.

Normk, and all the others, please use all the keys on your keyboard.
It is obvious that you are not using a mobile device, based on the amount of content in some of your posts, so "texting" shortcuts aren't really necessary.

.

Agreed, it took me quite a while to figure out what HTH meant. I had one particular tech support guy who used it all the time.

[Graham]

Ok, now I am confused. A starter RELAY is the small, solenoid-driven electric switch. The small current from the starter button energizes a small solenoid, closing a switch to drive high electric current to the starter motor. On a motorcycle, the starter motor is connected by a free-running clutch that only engages when the engine is stopped and the starter motor starts turning. The "sprag" clutch assembly is typically made with 3 large cylindrical bearings that lock in one direction and free run in the opposite direction.

A starter SOLENOID is used on automotive (and aircraft) starters. This combines the relay from the above with a bigger SOLENOID that moves the engagement gear onto the flywheel of the engine. As the gear fully engages, the solenoid also closes the switch for the high current drive, causing the starter motor to turn. The mechanism was the invention of Vincent Bendix, founder of the Bendix Corp., and was a huge advance in automotive technology. The mechanism is still referred to as a "bendix" among aviation mechanics. Now that I think about it, the bendix drive takes a good bit of current itself, and there is usually a separate starter relay for it in cars.

So in this sense, I think most motorcycles have a starter RELAY, but very few modern bikes have a SOLENOID.

For grins, I just checked the longitudinal engined Honda Goldwing and BMW K-bikes, both of which use a sprag clutch. Maybe the Ural or something like that uses a Bendix solenoid drive.

The automotive/motorcycle term solenoid refers to the magnetic switch wired between the starter and battery, whether it is mounted on the starter or not. Call a motorcycle parts supplier and tell him you need a solenoid and you will get the magnetic switch wired between the starter and battery.

The automotive/motorcycle term starter relay refers to a magnetic switch used to activate a starter solenoid. Like your wife’s sportster 1200.

[Normk]

Ajay is correct from a technical standpoint however Graham nailed the trades definition. The term "starter relay" appears in many OEM (Original Equipment Manufacture/Manufacturer) shop manuals and parts diagrams, but as Graham explained, unless one is careful with useage, one amy receive the wrong item.

This is the reason I tried to differentiate between the trades useage of the two terms.

Wondering if someone would be willing to handle the compilation of the terms? I simply do not have the motivation to do the proofing and clerical but rather prefer to try to contribute on the technical side. When I try to do both my enthusiasm dries up.

It might be useful to add definitions for;

Bolt
Nut
Capscrew
and other common fasteners.

If someone doesn't get to it first, I will try to get to it tomorrow.

[Graham]

CDI = electronic control box for ignition system
Igniter = electronic control box for ignition system
Module = electronic control box for ignition system

[Normk]

Module: any electronic "black box". Module is a generic term for components when there is no need for more detail or an attempt to sound more educated. I like to use the term, although "transducer" is pretty cool. I only use "marmalade" when wishing to sound really sophisicated.

Funny though, when I try to joke around another term usually pops into mind.

Mayonaise: a white, gooey mixture of oil and water. This may be a mixture of edible oil and water for flavoring food or the gooey slop found in engines which have insufficient temperature and internal ventilation to clear moisture from the crankcase.

API: American Petroleum Institute- the body who designate oil service ratings such as CD, CD, SF, SM, etc.

SAE: Society of Automotive Engineers- the body who designate oil viscosity ratings, (some) screw threads, (some) hydraulic fittings, etc.

CDI = electronic control box for ignition system
Igniter = electronic control box for ignition system
Module = electronic control box for ignition system