The GS Deadly Sins

[Gorminrider]

You are correct, the donor vehicle is not going to supply any more current than the bike demands, but current draw is not the main issue.

The problem is that the voltage regulator (R/R) on the bike is going to try to regulate ANY voltage that is applied across its terminals. Its terminals are basically connected to the battery at all times. If, for example, your R/R has a set-point of 14.1 volts and your donor vehicle is putting out 14.5 volts, your bike is going to try to regulate that down to 14.1. The donor sees that as a load and compensates by increasing the current flow to maintain its own voltage set-point. Your R/R can only handle so much current (probably about 25 amps) and most car alternators are capable of putting out well over 100 amps. Guess which one dies first?



Yep, the power that needed by the sarter is measure in WATTS. Watts are calculated by multiplying volts by amps. To minimize the number of amps that the booster is required to deliver (requiring heavier-duty parts, larger wires, etc.), they run a slightly higher voltage. THAT is what cooks the R/R, as detailed above.

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doesn't this answer pre-suppose that the setpoint is different? ie: 14.1(bike) versus 14.5(car) so it's a little confusing for me....
this might explain the Bikes "that have had no problem" directly jumping from a running car...GIVEN their battery IS in good shape.

as in (with my changed highlighting):
Originally Posted by eddiev
My take is this: If you have a healthy battery that is discharged there is no problem jumping from a car battery. The issue is that a car battery has the potential to push out a lot of current. That current is determined by the load, your battery in this case. If on the other hand your battery is defective (a shorted out cell etc.), the load, essentially a short circuit or close to it, now can cause a tremendous current draw from that monster car battery. Even more with the running engines alternator. I think this is were we hear cases of batteries blowing up


All that said, I would not use a motorcycle battery as a car battery.
and I would never connect a car battery directly to a motorcycle battery.
I am a cautious fellow, or try to be. I would first employ, is to place a brake-light bulb in "series" with a car battery (running vehicle or not), to my DISCONNECTED motorcycle battery first, to bring it back from a discharged level. This lightbulb acts as a series resistor and limits current to the smaller motorcycle battery....1/10 of a battery's amphr capacity is considered to be a safe charge rate. more than that would be ok for a short period.
THEN, disconnect that roadside charging mechanism, reconnect the motorcycle battery to motorcycle and try to start it..... if no go, try with the lightbulb still attached.still No go? possibly up the ante to a headlight in series... nogo? Quit.

added...but I would not worry to strap a well-conditioned car battery onto my bike to get home with...or to troubleshoot my system. A well-conditioned car battery is one that has no dead cells and is fully charged ...It will reach the set-point of the motorcycle's regulator when the bike is just using it's headlight, turnsignals etc and not overburden the bike's charging system

[GSXR7ED]

Number 9 Graphic Pic & Number 5 Comment

DEADLY SINS OF YOUR GS

These guys could have just done a search . . .

Here is a list of things that you should NEVER DO EVER. They come up a lot in various threads. Perhaps this will become an evil-twin to Nessism's noob mistake list and/or BassCliff's maintenance list:

1. NEVER START THE BIKE IF THERE IS GAS IN THE OIL

2. NEVER TURN THE ENGINE BY HAND OR OTHERWISE WITHOUT THE CAM CHAIN TENSIONER IN PLACE AND ARMED

3. NEVER ROTATE THE CAMS WITHOUT A SHIM IN EVERY VALVE BUCKET

4. NEVER RELY ON A PO/SHOP/BUDDY TO HAVE DONE ANYTHING CORRECTLY ON YOUR BIKE, EVER.

5. NEVER JUMP START THE BIKE FROM A RUNNING CAR BATTERY

6. NEVER IDLE YOUR AIR-COOLED ENGINE FOR MORE THAN A MINUTE OR TWO WITHOUT A FAN TO PROVIDE AIR-FLOW

7. NEVER USE AN EZ-OUT (MORE LIKE NEVER-OUT, AMIRITE?) TO EXTRACT A STUCK OR STRIPPED BOLT. USE LEFT-HANDED DRILL BITS INSTEAD.

8. NEVER RIDE WITHOUT HELMET, JACKET, BOOTS, GLOVES. ATGATT.

9. NEVER CLEAN, LUBE, FONDLE OR DO ANYTHING WITH YOUR CHAIN WHILE THE ENGINE IS RUNNING.

10. NEVER USE ARMOUR-ALL TO CLEAN A SEAT OR TIRES.

I'll edit this as more come to mind, but if you have any seriously bad moves that fit the NEVER DO THIS, post away. Try to stick to the real "pathway to doom" stuff, not the never-ending debates about pods/pipes, oil, sawzalls, etc.

If there are good links to threads the explain why these are such deadly sins (or better yet, demonstrate what happens to the sinner), post them here to add to the list.

Item #9--I read about an incident where some unfortunate rider thought it was a good idea to run the engine while cleaning his chain...NOT a good result. Would it be out of poor taste to display his picture here? If NO, I also have a clip from "Family Guy" showing Peter lighting several M80s and blowing off his fingers.

If it's not acceptable, I won't post. The other site I'm a member of has a "wicked" sense of things. It's interesting how people react to this sort of thing.

As for item #5--I was getting jump-started the day I registered my bike and the "Mobile Maintenance" van deployed to my location helped me get her back to the shop. As we were connecting the battery cables, I made a comment to start the van engine and the mechanic looked at me and said, "Hell No!"

Do you know what that will do to your bike? "Rookie me"...I said, "nope." Basically, it would mess up the entire charging system..."NO BUENO!"

So now I know and it makes sense...different batteries sizes means different power output.






Ed

[Octain]

I've seen it go wrong. First bike I took a look at was a gs500 a year back or so. Guy brought a brand new battery cuz the old one wasn't charging. Hooked it up to a running suv and a shower of sparks ensued. Toasted something for sure.

Since I wrote this I have heard of two, you and another on this board in another thread.

But in your case it sounds like the dude may have hooked the batteries up backwards.

[dorkburger]

If you're unfamiliar to the bike, check the cooling fins around the sparkplugs before removing the plugs. Unbeknownst to me ,i lost a nut into the cylinder on my bike when checking the plugs. Luckily that piston must have been at the top, because when i tried to start it, the starter the starter moved for a split second then stopped dead. Hours of fishing later, and the nut was removed without pulling the head off. Confession i dropped that nut there and forgot about it.

[GSXR7ED]

***Graphic Pic***My Replies

I'll review in a minute...but some good points mentioned. I'll also look at the replies...constantly learning here.


Ed

I'm replying to my own stuff...haha!

Item #9--I read about an incident where some unfortunate rider thought it was a good idea to run the engine while cleaning his chain...NOT a good result. Would it be out of poor taste to display his picture here? If NO, I also have a clip from "Family Guy" showing Peter lighting several M80s and blowing off his fingers.

If it's not acceptable, I won't post. The other site I'm a member of has a "wicked" sense of things. It's interesting how people react to this sort of thing.

As for item #5--I was getting jump-started the day I registered my bike and the "Mobile Maintenance" van deployed to my location helped me get her back to the shop. As we were connecting the battery cables, I made a comment to start the van engine and the mechanic looked at me and said, "Hell No!"

Do you know what that will do to your bike? "Rookie me"...I said, "nope." Basically, it would mess up the entire charging system..."NO BUENO!"

So now I know and it makes sense...different batteries sizes means different power output.


Ed

Okay, no one said anything about me NOT posting those chopped fingers from an incident on another Forum (GDC). Item #9 DON'T DO's.

OUCH!!!!!!!!!!!



And here's the Family Guy episode:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkVguDb6otc&feature=related

Ed

[Steve]

So now I know and it makes sense...different batteries sizes means different power output.

Sorry, that is not quite true.

As long as they are both 12 volt batteries (and most current vehicles are), the only difference that size makes is how long you can crank it before it dies.

The real reason that you don't want to have the donor vehicle running is because your little voltage regulator will try to regulate the voltage that it sees coming in. If it is more than the regulation point, it will simply shunt whatever it can to ground to regulate the voltage. The problem there is that the donor vehicle sees the load and kicks up its output to maintain the voltage. Your R/R tries to regulate the increased output by remaining in "shunt" mode, the donor vehicle stays ramped up, ... the cycle continues. It should be plain to see that your R/R is going to give up before the donor vehicle's ALTERNATOR even reaches maximum capacity.

If you simply connect jumper cables to a non-running donor, your bike only sees 12 volts that happens to last longer when you try to crank it.

.

[GSXR7ED]

I remember Now...

Sorry, that is not quite true.

As long as they are both 12 volt batteries (and most current vehicles are), the only difference that size makes is how long you can crank it before it dies.

The real reason that you don't want to have the donor vehicle running is because your little voltage regulator will try to regulate the voltage that it sees coming in. If it is more than the regulation point, it will simply shunt whatever it can to ground to regulate the voltage. The problem there is that the donor vehicle sees the load and kicks up its output to maintain the voltage. Your R/R tries to regulate the increased output by remaining in "shunt" mode, the donor vehicle stays ramped up, ... the cycle continues. It should be plain to see that your R/R is going to give up before the donor vehicle's ALTERNATOR even reaches maximum capacity.

If you simply connect jumper cables to a non-running donor, your bike only sees 12 volts that happens to last longer when you try to crank it.

.

Reading through past posts on this subject, I hastily made that reference and retract it. The Regulator/Reftifier is the KEY player in Regulating the current and I saw it first hand when the "Mobile Maintenance Dude" hooked up the cables. No ignition was required and the bike cranked over.

Thanks for the insight Steve...always good to learn about my bike and Electrical aspects that prevent damage to my bike.






Ed

[Paul]

Torquing up head bolts..... if they feel as though they are about to shear off.... they probably are

[Steve]

Torquing up head bolts..... if they feel as though they are about to shear off.... they probably are

How tight are to torquing them?

The specs are only to about 27 lb/ft, not sure how that relates to Newton/meters or whatever values you are using.

.

[Gorminrider]

If you simply connect jumper cables to a non-running donor, your bike only sees 12 volts that happens to last longer when you try to crank it.

Steve, I have a bone to pick with you on this. I confess I'm a bit of an old-woman when it comes to batteries . I fear that if my small discharged motorcycle battery is directly hooked a large, fully-charged battery it will possibly damage the smaller battery because there will be a large surge of current to the smaller battery...
Likely it's ok in an emergency to just hook up to larger donor,and get home but I propose it's better to first have a little patience and run a resistor lightbulb (like a headlight) between for awhile to bring the smaller battery voltage up slower before starting...

I never hook batteries of varying capacity together in parallel or series without precaution. Even rechargeables should be kept as matched sets.

[Paul]

How tight are to torquing them?

The specs are only to about 27 lb/ft, not sure how that relates to Newton/meters or whatever values you are using.

.

I did then as per the book 9-10Nm (GN 250 single), but I have bought a couple of "nearly new" Britool wrenches from ebay, and not calibrated them, and the last cert was Nov 2011.. my mistake!.. my daughter friends dad is the area Snap On rep so I'll get them done... just wish I hadn't skimpt and wish I'd stopped when they seemed to be getting easier to tighten

[GelandeStrasse]

All things I've done but won't do again cos these things somehow stick in the memory
Brown trousers #1. Place ring spanner down somewhere convenient behind you without looking . . . onto the battery terminals.
Brown trousers #2. Jump starting your vehicle after a heavy night and connecting up + to -
3. Attempting to ride off with the disc lock still attached.

[Chuck78]

always make certain that your bike is in neutral before trying to kick start it! my gear position & neutral indicators on my gauge cluster dont work, & I did this twice! Standing on the bike once, it moved forward 6" & rocked off the side stand and I dropped it.
the second time,I was tuning the pilot circuit in the backyard, and kicked it over while standing on the ground facing to the rear of the bike from the side. Sitting in grass, the rear wheel spun and I did not realize, felt like a little more resistance than I was used to. Kicked it a second time & the bike took off running 4 feet across the back yard before it dropped as I was trying to squeeze the brake lever to stall it out. Doh!!!

the last idiotic thing that I have to confess to - always make sure your fork lock is unlocked before starting your bike and trying to ride away to catch up to your buddies that are pulling out of the parking lot! The DOHC emblem is missing off of the side of my engine now because of that. it only took letting the clutch out for a split second to drop the bike when trying to go straight and trying to turn the handlebars while letting out the clutch

[Chuck78]

All newb mistakes... I still sometimes forget to put up the side stand

[850 Combat]

I'm never going to wear all the gear all the time. I'm into most of the gear most of the time.