new shocks - does this look ok to you?

[downsy]

I am sure they will ship anywhere in the world , just ask them for a shipping quote, I can see from the feedback that the have shipped them to the Uk

[Normk]

Lowering the rear will increase the front fork rake, adding more caster to the front wheel increasing the amount of lift per degree of front wheel turn. That has the effect of making the front wheel more difficult to turn and increasing the centering effect of the steering. This was the basis of the old "extended forks" which were popular on the chopper days as it made them bikes more stable at higher speeds but, of course, this carried on into the rediculous where front fork tube flex more than made up for the increase in straight line stabilty. Only one of the reasons one doesn't see extended forks on Isle of Mann.

Dropping the front forks in the triple tree will decrease rake, make turning more rapid and provide less centering effect, which is the reverse of dropping the front. For more discussion on this subject and its effects a dual sport group such as DSN_KLR650 will have more converage as this is a common practice for short legged dual sport riders wishing to get a bit more foot down, especially when working bad trails with camping loads.

Dropping both ends shortens wheel base which also quickens steering response and somewhat decreases straight line stability. I have played with dropping both ends separately and dropping both on quite a few bikes and generally have not noticed any marked effect on bikes which were inherently stable. Always wishing to gather more data thoughm which was the reason for the question about riding impression.

I learned long ago that one cannot connect technical/engineering knowledge with perception as some people who literally cannot put air in their own tires can notice a slight difference in suspension performance. There is simply no correlation between a great artist and one who can weave the canvas material.

Hope that answered the question. If interested, try slipping the fork tubes upward in the triple tree (lowering the front end) and see if you can notice the difference. Changing rear has a similar but opposite effect. If you want to experience a radically lowered rear on your bike, PM and I'll give you my ex-wife's address. Put her on the back and you'll see what the bike feels like with the rear bottomed. Just don't try to get across any truck scales.

A bit of a hijack on the original thread, but that looks to being handled by the buyer at this point....
but why would you say a shorter rear shock would increase straightline/high speed stability?
Dropping the rear an inch without any other changes up front may in fact affect it negatively. Agreed a new shock and spring will improve things over the old tired stockers but I'm curious of your rationale. If it's sprung correctly the longer spring will be just as stable in my mind.
Other things that I mentioned earlier would concern me....shorter shocks means a more difficult time to leverage on the centerstand if you still have one, and cornering clearance would be less if you've made no other mods.
I went the other way with a longer 13.25" shock and for the initial test ride (short for now during the winter) see it as an improvement. Not just because of comparing a good set of shocks with old tired originals.
Now I don't have an issue with seat/inseam height so a longer shock doesn't bother me....so I would understand that as a reason for shorter.

[lurch12_2000]

Lowering the rear will increase the front fork rake, adding more caster to the front wheel increasing the amount of lift per degree of front wheel turn. That has the effect of making the front wheel more difficult to turn and increasing the centering effect of the steering. This was the basis of the old "extended forks" which were popular on the chopper days as it made them bikes more stable at higher speeds but, of course, this carried on into the rediculous where front fork tube flex more than made up for the increase in straight line stabilty. Only one of the reasons one doesn't see extended forks on Isle of Mann.

Dropping the front forks in the triple tree will decrease rake, make turning more rapid and provide less centering effect, which is the reverse of dropping the front. For more discussion on this subject and its effects a dual sport group such as DSN_KLR650 will have more converage as this is a common practice for short legged dual sport riders wishing to get a bit more foot down, especially when working bad trails with camping loads.

Dropping both ends shortens wheel base which also quickens steering response and somewhat decreases straight line stability. I have played with dropping both ends separately and dropping both on quite a few bikes and generally have not noticed any marked effect on bikes which were inherently stable. Always wishing to gather more data thoughm which was the reason for the question about riding impression.

I learned long ago that one cannot connect technical/engineering knowledge with perception as some people who literally cannot put air in their own tires can notice a slight difference in suspension performance. There is simply no correlation between a great artist and one who can weave the canvas material.

Hope that answered the question. If interested, try slipping the fork tubes upward in the triple tree (lowering the front end) and see if you can notice the difference. Changing rear has a similar but opposite effect. If you want to experience a radically lowered rear on your bike, PM and I'll give you my ex-wife's address. Put her on the back and you'll see what the bike feels like with the rear bottomed. Just don't try to get across any truck scales.

Well, you did provide a lenthy explanation, but I would disagree. I agree that extending the front end(or just dropping the rear end) will make a bike more sluggish to turn, it also tends to shift the weight rearward which in my experience at higher speed lightens the front end making it vague and unstable at higher speeds. Not much technical jargon to back my theory up other than experience with riding various "choppers" in my youth...just that I'll take my 1000G with stock length or slightly longer shocks with my slightly forward leaning h-bars over shorter shocks at high speed anyday and feel more planted and stable at >100mph!
A lot of the noticed stability improvement either way is due to the usefulness of the new shocks anyhow.
Really, bottom line is that just going with a 1" lower shock in of itself would not be an improvment on these GS bikes unless you're short legged, IMO....but I understand the attraction of a good shock at a great price. Now back to the thread...although I think the buyer and seller can handle things from here on...sorry for my digression.

[lurch12_2000]

I am sure they will ship anywhere in the world , just ask them for a shipping quote, I can see from the feedback that the have shipped them to the Uk

I'm all set now with my new Showa 13.25" shocks, but I'll keep this useful info for future reference....thanks.

[shwaz]

more photos

first of all, thanks everyone for comments and thoughts, even off-topic ones. this has been very interesting to read and i'm learning more every post. glad i was able to start such a lively discussion! keep it coming.


here are some more photos as promised. really there's just the one messed up bushing as you'll see below (multiple pictures of it below, different angles but all the same eye).
i'll try looking into replacement bushings from suzuki but i'm not sure if that's applicable on these as they seem to be mold-injected(?). would i cut/dig out the existing rubber and then put a replacement bushing in?

anyway, here are the close ups:

these are fine


same here, not pristine but certainly ok


not so much

[Agemax]

you could press one out and take it to a local automotive parts centre, see if they can match one up. then press them in on a hydraulic press,
or press one out, measure the i/d and o/d and see if you can find them online

[JEEPRUSTY]

Mush ado about nothing.
Strap it on and go.

If you do opt to change one bushing at a shop then you will have to change both to get the things equal.

added expense and bother

You could contact the distributor and complain in hopes of getting a new set from them directly.

[shwaz]

Mush ado about nothing.
Strap it on and go.

If you do opt to change one bushing at a shop then you will have to change both to get the things equal.

added expense and bother

Heheh. You said strap on

Noted, thanks. That's my current intent.

[salty_monk]

If it was me I would just fit them.... As I said earlier, my Works shocks don't have any rubber on one side as standard anyway & the MDI shocks have an awful bushing that many have used for a year or more without problem.

You would most likely have to cut it out & press a new one in.

Are the Holes in those bushes the right size for the bolts/pegs? You may find you need an insert to go inside the hole to reduce it's size (that's what Progressive does as stock).

Dan

[Normk]

+1 to Rusty's recommendation.

Here's the issue as I see it:

The damage to the rubber bushing seems to be mostly cosmetic and so not affecting a significant depth of the bushing between insert and shock "eye". It thus appears that the remaining rubber bushing is sufficient for the purpose.

Replacing this bushing is far more of a problem than is likely appreciated.

Anyone who has replaced compressed cylinderical rubber bushings will appreciate that they are under a high degree of compression as installed. Forcing a new bushing into place requires inner and outer dies to confine and channel the bushing into place, combined with significant pressing effort. I doubt that these bushings could be seated with, for example an 8 inch shop vise but rather would require a hydraulic press, even if you had the dies.

Attempting to push the bushing into place and then following up with the inner insert tube will result in the tube cutting into the rubber bushing and attempting to displace the bushing axially. Attempting to push the bushing into the space while inner tube is in place will be fruitless because the bushing will simply compress and deform.

Pressing these assemblies into place requires that the bushing be confined both internally and externally while forcing the bushing into place. The problem is exacerbated by the need to secure the shock eye and inner tube from axial movement.

The alternatives of inserting the bushing, followed by installing the inner tube, or installing tube and bushing together into the shock eye present similar problems. Block the end of the rubber bushing to keep it from beng pushed (axially) from the shock eye will simply result in the rubber bulging further into the path of the inner sleeve, exascerbating the problem.

Inspection of the shock will confirm that the bushing was not molded in place due to the compression present in the rubber although it is possible that manufacturing processes developed later than those of which I am aware may have developed a rubber material which will expand after injection.

IME, removing the rubber bushing will create greater difficulties as it will be difficult to install a bushing which is of sufficient density. Other than cosmetics, there would seem to be nothing to gain even if the rubber could be replaced.

Having worked in a Third World country, I am well aware of the problem of attempting to replace suspension rubber parts. We usually resorted to machining and sleeving a control arm bushing to size in order to use another bushing than the one specified. It is not fun to machine the inner or outer sleeve of an assembled rubber cored bushing because of the deflection of the sleeve under machining.

"Pretty it up" with some product if that seems to be desireable and run the shocks is my recommendation.

If the rubber bushing of an otherwise good shock of this mounting configuration were needing replacement, I would be looking to machining nylon or other media to replace both rubber bushing and inner sleeve. A slip fit thinner sleeve or step stud/step bolt would adjust end-wise compression.

[Agemax]

+1 to Rusty's recommendation.

Here's the issue as I see it:

The damage to the rubber bushing seems to be mostly cosmetic and so not affecting a significant depth of the bushing between insert and shock "eye". It thus appears that the remaining rubber bushing is sufficient for the purpose.

Replacing this bushing is far more of a problem than is likely appreciated.

Anyone who has replaced compressed cylinderical rubber bushings will appreciate that they are under a high degree of compression as installed. Forcing a new bushing into place requires inner and outer dies to confine and channel the bushing into place, combined with significant pressing effort. I doubt that these bushings could be seated with, for example an 8 inch shop vise but rather would require a hydraulic press, even if you had the dies.

Attempting to push the bushing into place and then following up with the inner insert tube will result in the tube cutting into the rubber bushing and attempting to displace the bushing axially. Attempting to push the bushing into the space while inner tube is in place will be fruitless because the bushing will simply compress and deform.

Pressing these assemblies into place requires that the bushing be confined both internally and externally while forcing the bushing into place. The problem is exacerbated by the need to secure the shock eye and inner tube from axial movement.

The alternatives of inserting the bushing, followed by installing the inner tube, or installing tube and bushing together into the shock eye present similar problems. Block the end of the rubber bushing to keep it from beng pushed (axially) from the shock eye will simply result in the rubber bulging further into the path of the inner sleeve, exascerbating the problem.

Inspection of the shock will confirm that the bushing was not molded in place due to the compression present in the rubber although it is possible that manufacturing processes developed later than those of which I am aware may have developed a rubber material which will expand after injection.

IME, removing the rubber bushing will create greater difficulties as it will be difficult to install a bushing which is of sufficient density. Other than cosmetics, there would seem to be nothing to gain even if the rubber could be replaced.

Having worked in a Third World country, I am well aware of the problem of attempting to replace suspension rubber parts. We usually resorted to machining and sleeving a control arm bushing to size in order to use another bushing than the one specified. It is not fun to machine the inner or outer sleeve of an assembled rubber cored bushing because of the deflection of the sleeve under machining.

"Pretty it up" with some product if that seems to be desireable and run the shocks is my recommendation.

If the rubber bushing of an otherwise good shock of this mounting configuration were needing replacement, I would be looking to machining nylon or other media to replace both rubber bushing and inner sleeve. A slip fit thinner sleeve or step stud/step bolt would adjust end-wise compression.

bushes like these are regularly replaced in the UK as MOT fixes. they come with a steel i/d bushing and a steel o/d bushing. they are easily pressed in even with a bench vice. same as these if you can source the correct diameters

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ford-Cortina-Mark-3-Front-suspension-arm-bush-/200694159241?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item2eba4dd789#ht_500wt_1069

[shwaz]

bushes like these are regularly replaced in the UK as MOT fixes. they come with a steel i/d bushing and a steel o/d bushing. they are easily pressed in even with a bench vice. same as these if you can source the correct diameters
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ford-Corti...#ht_500wt_1069

Thanks. I will look into that and see what I can find, and appreciate the info. Almost definitely going to mount them before bothering with that though; may comeback to that at a later date. As someone who's been working on bikes for slightly lesstime than hes owned one (that's about 5 months) I think I'm ahead of the game even being on these forums and looking for this kind of info, and as long as the bushing isn't a huge impediment to the function of the shock I think I'm good for now

Gonna strap them on and see how they feel!

[Normk]

If those are control arm bushings for an automobile as they appear, pressing by means of a bench vise will be quite a challenge, especially without press adapters. If one tries to simply press onto the end of the bushing, the force will first have to displace the inner sleeve (tube) and rubber to the degree which is required to bottom the press ram against the outer sleeve of the bushing. Depending on the arrangement, this may begin to tear/separate the rubber from one of the sleeves. Regardless it will be more than a challenge to maintain alignment of the bushing while beginning to push.

Not wishing to begin a debate but without press adapters to allow the force to be applied to the outer sleeve (tube) there will be little luck in attempting to force the bushing into place. In the trade, most shops use a special press set which can change the bushings without resort to an upright hydraulic shop press for convenience and to allow some of the replacement operations to take place without complete disassembly which saves the customer money.

Here's an example of an OTC kit for the purpose:

http://www.mile-x.com/otc-7068-upper-bushing-tool.aspx

This is quite a limited kit compared with the ones in common service but didn't wish to spend more time looking.



If you were lucky enough to obtain an automotive type bushing of this type in the small size for the shocks, I bench vise should be capable of pressing the bushings although you will still require some adapters to support the shock eye and to press against the outer sleeve of the bushing. Note that these are much larger than the rear shock bushings in question and of a different design as they are made with integral inner and outer sleeves. This is they type of contol arm bushing to which I referred when discussing the machining and sleeving of such bushings for Third World automotive service.

I would be amazed were such bushings from automotive service to be found in the sizing required but have been married long enough to know just how wrong I can be.

While it may be possible to use impact sockets as press adapters, inspection of the shock will reveal that the end of the adapter will need to be notched to avoid the weld. If someone has actually replaced these shock bushings it would be of interest.

I do know that some of the old Brit bikes had replaceable rubber bushings but not Japanese street bikes of this type.

Interesting concept but I'd like hear from someone who has actually done this as not sure that the problems are understood.

bushes like these are regularly replaced in the UK as MOT fixes. they come with a steel i/d bushing and a steel o/d bushing. they are easily pressed in even with a bench vice. same as these if you can source the correct diameters
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ford-Corti...#ht_500wt_1069

[JEEPRUSTY]

This is such a great topic because it makes one think.

I know one shock has a marginal bit of rubber in one side of it's bushing but how much play occurs through the various planes that exist in a swing arm.

Last time I checked the washer that goes under your mounting nut would press the bushing and not the eye of the shock.

If this is true then a bit of extra squishiness on one side would be difficult to measure in real world performance.

A princess and a pea are one thing but super cheap shocks with a bit of a small, but admittedly measurable, flaw is another.

I recall with joy my old dirt bike that I was out running the cops on.
We had trails where we could ditch em and the one I had to go down was a slope in a pine grove.

It was the ultimate test of a shock. All of those roots laying across the trail raised high by foot wear.

I got home scared ****less and looked at one shock that had been bent almost 45 degrees. The other was perfect though.

[Normk]

You are a bad influence!

This is such a great topic because it makes one think.

I recall with joy my old dirt bike that I was out running the cops on.
We had trails where we could ditch em and the one I had to go down was a slope in a pine grove.

It was the ultimate test of a shock. All of those roots laying across the trail raised high by foot wear.

I got home scared ****less and looked at one shock that had been bent almost 45 degrees. The other was perfect though.