1150 3.5" wheel in an 1100 swingarm

[posplayr]

In contrast the bandit swing arm is about 3/16" offset in the frame (I measured this outside the frame using a T square and blocks clamped to the swing arm forks). The wheel spacers have to take this into consideration. For my bandit swing arm in order to get better clearance for my rear brake rod between swing arm and frame, I offset the swing arm in the frame by 4mm (away from the right side rear brake)and compensated at the wheel spacers to keep the wheel centered.

here is a picture of how I determined the bandit swing arm offset.

I first measured the midpoint between the swingarm bolt shaft.

Then I measured the offset between that midpoint and the left and the right forks.

The difference was the offset.

[posplayr]

See attached was an attempt to determine the wheel centering by alignment with the front wheel. The best I could do was about +/- 1/4" at best.

It is much more accurate to do the T square method off of the swingarm.

[John Kat]

I will look into this further tomorrow.
As I was suspecting the swingarm to be assymetrical, I checked by superimposing two GS 1000 swingarms with one upside down.
They are symmetrical as far as I could judge.
With respect to the clearance of the wheel ( or tire) to the swingarm, I reversed the wheel in the swingarm ( i.e. back to front ) to ensure the same baseline.
I did my homework as you can see but I'll use your method tomorrow to triple check.
Thanks for the inputs!

[posplayr]

If the swingarm is symmetrical then the tire clearance will be indicative of centering of the wheel. I'm not sure what the wheel reversal is giving you. With a symmetrical swing arm the wheel should have the same spacing to the swing arm.
I did a whole lot of calculations as well and spent hours on the phone with katman and ultimately the only thing that gave me any confidence is what I'm outlining as it was very straight forward direct measurements

[jwhelan65]

Little confused with John Kats 1000 set up in comparison to the alluminm 1100 swingarm..are they the same? Looking at this today and some preliminary measurements it looks like Dan's set up is the way to go. I will try and get some pics up..

[jwhelan65]

Hmmm.....another 40 post 3.5 wheel swap thread coming up.

I have a 3.5 rear from an 86 1150. I am going to install it on my number 2 83 1100E.

What I have checked out so far is this:

With the chain carrier and 630 sprocket mounted, standard 1100E spacer between hub and adjuster, stock 1100 spacer / bearing diameter reducer between sprocket carrier and left wheel bearing, the center of the 3.5 wheel and the same parts (I have a couple of complete wheel mounting assemblies) fitted to the stock 1100 wheel, both wheels, measured from the chain side are as close to identical as a pencil mark can show when locating the center of the wheel. So far so good. I realize the 3.5 wheel hub is narrower than the 2.5 stock wheel.....(I am not near the machines so do not have the figures) and for sure a spacer or 2 will be required on the rt. side so that the swing arm can be brought in tight / and (maybe) position caliper holder such that caliper can slide over rotor and be centered too( I intend to use the 1100 rotor).

My observation is that, at least on my 1100ED, the swap is a straight forward and simple deal re wheel centering. It appears too that with a 140 / 80 Michelin tire.....the 630 chain will work.....I have an extra caliper stay rod to modify as required re tire clearance...

Spacers may just be different thickness washers initially. If I do have a concern, it is on the rotor side....possibly need to space the rotor outboard a tad....

With very little fabrication the Bandit 1200 brake stay flipped 180 degrees works perfectly. I agree I think this whole process has been over analyzed. Saltys looks to be the easiest and most straight forward.

[posplayr]

Hmmm.....another 40 post 3.5 wheel swap thread coming up.

I have a 3.5 rear from an 86 1150. I am going to install it on my number 2 83 1100E.

What I have checked out so far is this:

With the chain carrier and 630 sprocket mounted, standard 1100E spacer between hub and adjuster, stock 1100 spacer / bearing diameter reducer between sprocket carrier and left wheel bearing, the center of the 3.5 wheel and the same parts (I have a couple of complete wheel mounting assemblies) fitted to the stock 1100 wheel, both wheels, measured from the chain side are as close to identical as a pencil mark can show when locating the center of the wheel. So far so good. I realize the 3.5 wheel hub is narrower than the 2.5 stock wheel.....(I am not near the machines so do not have the figures) and for sure a spacer or 2 will be required on the rt. side so that the swing arm can be brought in tight / and (maybe) position caliper holder such that caliper can slide over rotor and be centered too( I intend to use the 1100 rotor).

My observation is that, at least on my 1100ED, the swap is a straight forward and simple deal re wheel centering. It appears too that with a 140 / 80 Michelin tire.....the 630 chain will work.....I have an extra caliper stay rod to modify as required re tire clearance...

Spacers may just be different thickness washers initially. If I do have a concern, it is on the rotor side....possibly need to space the rotor outboard a tad....

yep there nutin that a few spacer wont fix

[John Kat]

OK, I've read through all the posts and made one more set of measurements.
I decided to compare my GS 1000 EC ( skunk) that's 100% OEM to my GS 1000S that has an 1150 3" wheel fitted on a GS 1100 swingarm.
Both have a 630 chain with a GS 1000 sprocket carrier.
The idea is the following: my laser chain alignment tool goes against the outside of the rear sprocket ( as I would do to check if the chain is aligned) and I measure the distance to the rear rim with a straightedge.
I believe it's important to do this with the wheels mounted to take out any free play.
The results : GS 1000EC: 56 mm, GS 1000S: 56mm
Surprise, surprise...Suzuki has moved out the chain by exactly the same amount from the rear rim
Sounds like good engineering to me?
Now for the wheel offset.
The 2.5 " wheel measures 84 mm from rim to rim, the 3" wheel measures 96 mm.
The offset is thus (96-84)/2=6 mm
When you think of it it seems obvious: Suzuki wanted to use larger tires on their 1150 so they had to keep the chain away from the tire.
To do so without modifying the sprocket carrier ( cost, cost, cost...) they used an offset wheel ( to the right of course to clear the chain)
To confirm this the 1150 motor has a larger spacer behind the engine sprocket than the 1000's and 1100's.
On the 1150: 21.6 mm wide on the 1000/1100 : 18.6 mm ( PN 09180-25074 vs 09180-25052)
Why is the offset only 3 mm versus the 6mm I measured above?
What's for sure is that it's in the same direction!
Thank you for your attention

[posplayr]

OK, I've read through all the posts and made one more set of measurements.
I decided to compare my GS 1000 EC ( skunk) that's 100% OEM to my GS 1000S that has an 1150 3" wheel fitted on a GS 1100 swingarm.
Both have a 630 chain with a GS 1000 sprocket carrier.
The idea is the following: my laser chain alignment tool goes against the outside of the rear sprocket ( as I would do to check if the chain is aligned) and I measure the distance to the rear rim with a straightedge.
I believe it's important to do this with the wheels mounted to take out any free play.
The results : GS 1000EC: 56 mm, GS 1000S: 56mm
Surprise, surprise...Suzuki has moved out the chain by exactly the same amount from the rear rim
Sounds like good engineering to me?
Now for the wheel offset.
The 2.5 " wheel measures 84 mm from rim to rim, the 3" wheel measures 92 mm.
The offset is thus (92-84)/2=4 mm
When you think of it it seems obvious: Suzuki wanted to use larger tires on their 1150 so they had to keep the chain away from the tire.
To do so without modifying the sprocket carrier ( cost, cost, cost...) they used an offset wheel ( to the right of course to clear the chain)
To confirm this the 1150 motor has a larger spacer behind the engine sprocket than the 1000's and 1100's.
On the 1150: 21.6 mm wide on the 1000/1100 : 18.6 mm ( PN 09180-25074 vs 09180-25052)
Here again you find the 3mm offset versus the 4mm I measured above.
Thank you for your attention

While I understand what you are doing, it still doesn't confirm whether the wheel is centered in the bike. If you are only off by +/-4mm (0.157") it won't matter of course; you can trim that out with the front/rear wheel alignment.

Relying on an 8V 1000 and a 16V 1150 cases to have the same countersprock offset in the frame is a real stretch. It is possible, but hardly anything to rely on.

A simpler but less accurate measurement is shown in the attached. Clamp a straight edge to the inside or outside of the fork (which ever has a flatter wider surface) and then measure from the extended straight edge to the edge of the rim. Any error in flatness is multiplied this way, but it might be easier that getting two straight edges across the wheels lip.

The tolerance on a wheel runnout is typically about 1mm or 0.025" so there is a limit to this accuracy, but the tire varies more than 1mm so it doesn't really matter that much.

[salty_monk]

I directly compared the wheels to take out anything to do with the frame and swingarm.

I already know the 2.5" wheel is centred (or at least as centred as Suzuki intended) as it's stock (it's an 1100 rim in an 1100 swingarm) so by comparing the 2 wheels directly I can make the adjustments to make sure my 3.5" rim is centred.

I haven't applied it yet but I will....

Even throwing all of the added 5mm needed on the right side (as TCK & others have done) is only going to throw things off by 2mm, I suspect it's not even noticeable to 99.9% of riders. The Hyabusa has more offset than that between front & rear wheel as STOCK (so I have read).

[posplayr]

I directly compared the wheels to take out anything to do with the frame and swingarm.

I already know the 2.5" wheel is centred (or at least as centred as Suzuki intended) as it's stock (it's an 1100 rim in an 1100 swingarm) so by comparing the 2 wheels directly I can make the adjustments to make sure my 3.5" rim is centred.

I haven't applied it yet but I will....

Even throwing all of the added 5mm needed on the right side (as TCK & others have done) is only going to throw things off by 2mm, I suspect it's not even noticeable to 99.9% of riders. The Hyabusa has more offset than that between front & rear wheel as STOCK (so I have read).

+/- 4mm is probably the max. I just figured if the bike has 400 lbs of sprung weight (525 lbs total) and you have a 200 lbs rider, then the rider would have to scooch (his weight distribution) over 8mm (0.3") to compensate for a 4mm wheel offset. That is a two to one ratio (which will increase with a smaller rider) so I would want to make sure the offset is not too large.

P.S. I basically worked up my offsets the same way as your did comparing Katmans 1100 measurements to the combination of offsets of the bandit swinger and the 88 3 spoke wheels/gsxr hub.

[John Kat]

While I understand what you are doing, it still doesn't confirm whether the wheel is centered in the bike. If you are only off by +/-4mm (0.157") it won't matter of course; you can trim that out with the front/rear wheel alignment.

Relying on an 8V 1000 and a 16V 1150 cases to have the same countersprock offset in the frame is a real stretch. It is possible, but hardly anything to rely on.

A simpler but less accurate measurement is shown in the attached. Clamp a straight edge to the inside or outside of the fork (which ever has a flatter wider surface) and then measure from the extended straight edge to the edge of the rim. Any error in flatness is multiplied this way, but it might be easier that getting two straight edges across the wheels lip.

The tolerance on a wheel runnout is typically about 1mm or 0.025" so there is a limit to this accuracy, but the tire varies more than 1mm so it doesn't really matter that much.

I used your method previously but it's not very accurate as here you are relying on the fact that the straight edge runs parallel to the wheel...
In fact my method amounts to the same but I use the sprocket as a guide instead of a side of the swingarm.
I believe that the sprocket by design runs parallel to the rim.
One can average out the lack of accuracy by taking a few measurements by rotating the wheel around.
I'm not trying to prove that my GS 1000 EC wheel is centered in the swingarm. I'm relying on Suzuki's OEM design for that.
What I'm after is to demonstrate that the 1150 wheel is offset to the right compared to the 1000/1100 wheel.
I believe I have achieved that and that it makes good sense from an engineering standpoint.
If we had been appointed by Suzuki to allow largers tires to go on the 1150 by keeping costs down to a minimum we would have offset the rear wheel to the right to allow the chain to clear the tire while using the same sprocket carrier.
The only extra cost is related to a larger spacer behind the engine sprocket to accomodate for the newly created offset from the chain when the new wheel is used
I would say:well done Mr Suzuki
If anyone doubts this method; why not do the measurements for yourself.

[posplayr]

I used your method previously but it's not very accurate as here you are relying on the fact that the straight edge runs parallel to the wheel...
In fact my method amounts to the same but I use the sprocket as a guide instead of a side of the swingarm.
I believe that the sprocket by design runs parallel to the rim.
One can average out the lack of accuracy by taking a few measurements by rotating the wheel around.
I'm not trying to prove that my GS 1000 EC wheel is centered in the swingarm. I'm relying on Suzuki's OEM design for that.
What I'm after is to demonstrate that the 1150 wheel is offset to the right compared to the 1000/1100 wheel.
I believe I have achieved that and that it makes good sense from an engineering standpoint.
If we had been appointed by Suzuki to allow largers tires to go on the 1150 by keeping costs down to a minimum we would have offset the rear wheel to the right to allow the chain to clear the tire while using the same sprocket carrier.
The only extra cost is related to a larger spacer behind the engine sprocket to accomodate for the newly created offset from the chain when the new wheel is used
I would say:well done Mr Suzuki
If anyone doubts this method; why not do the measurements for yourself.

you are relying on the fact that the straight edge runs parallel to the wheel...

Not so; The first method was to put a straight edge right against the wheel. Assuming there is in spec runout (>1mm) then the offset to the fork can be measured sub mm (based on the ratio of wheel lip radius to fork distance from axle).

In fact my method amounts to the same but I use the sprocket as a guide instead of a side of the swingarm.

Not to be argumentative but the sprocket carrier doesn' seem very accurate to me. The alignment to the wheel is at a much smaller radius and moves with respect to the wheel due to the narrow bearing shoulder and rubber cushions. On mine I could easily see it move with respect to the wheel as it rotates. If I had to guess using the sproket is probably 5 times worse than a straight edge across the wheel. I know you dont want to hear that but it is straightforward geometry.

What I'm after is to demonstrate that the 1150 wheel is offset to the right compared to the 1000/1100 wheel.

That is understandable, so how can you get a different answer to Salty?Monk? Ultimately a measure of the centering is the only direct confirmation and it is relatively easy given your other symmetries.

And rest assured, I have already done most of the same measurements including experimentaion with various methods of wheel alignment.

[John Kat]

I'd like to propose the following to get to the bottom of this matter.
Could someone provide us with the dimensions of the original spacers used on the rear wheel of a GS 1150?
I believe that if we compared the stacked height of all spacers ( including the caliper bracket) both right and left of the wheel and we compare that to the GS 1000/1100 spacers we will through some simple arithmetic determine by how much the 1150 wheel is offset compared to the 1000.
This assumes that the GS 1150 swingarm is symetrical of course...
But it would be a good start at least.
I will check on this side of the ocean if I can get this data.

[posplayr]

I'd like to propose the following to get to the bottom of this matter.
Could someone provide us with the dimensions of the original spacers used on the rear wheel of a GS 1150?
I believe that if we compared the stacked height of all spacers ( including the caliper bracket) both right and left of the wheel and we compare that to the GS 1000/1100 spacers we will through some simple arithmetic determine by how much the 1150 wheel is offset compared to the 1000.
This assumes that the GS 1150 swingarm is symetrical of course...
But it would be a good start at least.
I will check on this side of the ocean if I can get this data.

Can you use the dimensions from SaltyMonks drawings? I can really read them very well.