1150 transmission problems revisted

[Carter Turk]

I believe me and a friend solved the 2nd gear shuddering problem I posted about back in March.

It turns out the APE HD transmission bearings they show on the GS Zone for 1100/1150 were the wrong size (thickness)

I called APE about not having the C-ring grooves on the smaller bearings, to which they responded, they didn't know. They told me to call the bearing supplier. Wow what customer service.

So I split my cases again to find the 2nd gear output shaft gear grazing a groove of aluminum on the case.

My friend checked the Orient Express site and found different part numbers for the 1100/1150 transmission bearings.

I now have the original bearings back in place, with just new shift forks as the bearings looked fine.

The larger output shaft bearing was noticably wider than the APE HD replacement.

I'm going to give APE a ring and see what they have to say.

 

[earlfor]

So APE is selling the wrong bearing size. Hmmm, thats not very reassuring relative to any future dealings with them. I'll probably keep that in mind and go with Suzuki transmission bearings to avoid that happening. (if I need bearings ...obviously. )

Earl

 

[Hap Call]

Suzuki part numbers:

GS1150
output RH bearing - 20X47X14 - Suzuki P/N 09262-20044
output LH bearing - 25X62X19 - Suzuki P/N 09262-25103
Input RH bearing - 26X62X17 - Suzuki P/N 09262-25105
Input LH bearing - 20X47X14 - Suzuki P/N 09262-20044

GS1100
output RH bearing - 20X47X14 - Suzuki P/N 09262-20044
output LH bearing - 25X62X19 - Suzuki P/N 09262-25103
Input RH bearing - 26X62X17 - Suzuki P/N 09262-25105
Input LH bearing - 20X47X14 - Suzuki P/N 09262-20044

They are the same for both the 1100 and the 1150, according to the microfiche at PowerSportsPro.

http://www.powersportspro.com/


Bearing set from Schnitz Racing also listed as fitting both the 1100 and the 1150:

http://secure.cartsvr.net/catalogs/catalog.asp?prodid=326171&showprevnext=1


Van Sant Enterprises used and clearance parts page has GS1100/1150 transmission bearings listed under "ENGINE COMPONENTS":

http://www.vansantent.com/usedparts.htm



Hap

 

[Carter Turk]

Hap

I didn't do the stock bearing research you compiled, I simply looked at the APE website and ordered HD tranmission bearings. I read here at this site, HD bearings were a good idea I thought I would be doing my engine good by installing these.

All the diameters were right. The exception being the larger output shaft bearing and the larger input shaft bearing width . The input was minimal, but the output was enough cause 2nd gear to rub up against the case.

Wade Clark over a Dragbike.com had the same problem and destroyed 2 procut trannies in 1996. Read my post over there if you like (GS Zone)

The bearings I bought can be used, but no information was provided explaining the need for a spacer next to the bearing in question for the 1150.

Also the smaller bearings provided by APE had no C-ring grooves, which seemed odd to me, but another poster over at Dragbike explained those bearings are somewhat floating in position as the shaft is pulled toward the clutch or countershaft sprocket when torqued to spec.

That still sounds a bit sketchy to me seeing that I don't take plleasure in splitting my cases on a regular basis as a racer might.

The problem arised from the fact that APE specifies only 2 bearing sizes for the 1100/1150 with no mention of a spacer for the 1150.

 

[Hap Call]

Hey Carter,

I would have done the same thing you did...APE is normally considered a great source but it looks like they dropped the ball here. I apologize if it sounded like I was disputing your experience?that was not my intent by any means. I noticed that on the Alpha Sports web site they only list two bearing sizes, saying that the two larger bearings are the same but they are not...I wonder if APE did the same thing. I would hammer APE!

Hap

 

[Carter Turk]

Hap

Makes me wish I had just ordered stock bearings in the first place. APE's reputation caused me to assume without measuring. My own fault I guess.

But, with the number of people who drag these bikes you would think a mention of the necessity of a spacer would be included with the bearings if in fact it is an 1150.

 

[Hap Call]

Carter, I'm very interested in this because I also have my cases split to change transmissions. I talked to a guy at APE about the bearings and he said he wasn't very familiar with them and that I should e-mail my questions to them and they would have someone answer them. Here is the e-mail I sent:

I taked to a gentleman at APE on the phone about this and he recomended that I e-mail my questions.

First, you have two part numbers for the heavyduty transmission bearing for the GS1100/1150. I have the Suzuki part numbers and sizes from their microfiche and they list three different bearing sizes. Here are the Suzuki part numbers, bearing dimensions, and location in the transmission:

output RH bearing - 20X47X14 - Suzuki P/N 09262-20044
output LH bearing - 25X62X19 - Suzuki P/N 09262-25103
Input RH bearing - 26X62X17 - Suzuki P/N 09262-25105
Input LH bearing - 20X47X14 - Suzuki P/N 09262-20044

Notice that the two large bearings have different widths and different ID on the inner race...only the OD is the same.

Second, do all the bearings have the grove milled into the outer race for the c-rings?

Third, do the bearings have the positioning pin installed on the outer race of the bearings?

Fourth (and last), what makes these bearings "heavyduty" compared to the stock bearings?

Thanks for your help. I look forward to your reply.

Hap Call

I will post their reply.

Hap

 

[Carter Turk]

Very nice concise questions. I had the same phone experience with them when I called about the c-ring grooves The guy seemed clueless, had to put me on hold to ask someone else. I'll be interested as well what they have to say.

 

[Hap Call]

I called APE because I still had not heard from them about my e-mail. I talked with the same guy I talked with before and told him I still had not heard anything. He told me that the guy was out to lunch but would respond to the e-mail when he got back. I decided to call Murdoch Racing Enterprises (MRE) and ask them. Here are their responses:

On different size bearings: They said that the two small bearings are the same size and the two large bearings are the same size. The difference is that a spacer has to be placed in the GS1150 case but not in the 1100 case. They supply the spacer with their bearings. I can't explain why Suzuki lists both bikes as using the same bearing.

On the milled grove: there are no milled groves in the smaller bearings, but there are on the larger bearings. They said that the smaller bearings do not see any side thrust thus the retaining groves are unnecessary.

On the positioning pin installed on the outer race of the bearings: they are also unnecessary. They said they were put there to prevent people who would ride with a locked up bearing from destroying the cases - personally that sounded kinda weak.

On what makes these bearings "heavyduty" compared to the stock bearings: I forgot to ask.

Hap

 

[Hap Call]

APE still has not responded to my request for information. I have both a 1100 transmission and a 1150 transmission. I'm going to do a side-by-side comparison of the two, mic each piece and see what the differences are. This has been a very educational thread for me...

Hap

 

[mike J]

The heavy duty bearing have more balls in them compared to the stock ones IIRC. I don't buy the "those aren't necessary" talk from them. People tend to believe that the mfg's are stupid, they don't put things in there just to waste money. Mike J

 

[Hap Call]

... I don't buy the "those are necessary" talk from them. People tend to believe that the mfg's are stupid, they don't put things in there just to waste money. Mike J

I agree!

Hap

 

[Hap Call]

I finally got a reply (actually two of them) from APE:

"Hi Taige, I think I can help here ,

1. GS1100 has 2pcs 204 ( 20x47x14 ) and 2pcs 305-NR ( 25x62x17 ) we supply the 305-NR with a snap ring groove and the 204 without. This is the same combo most Prostock guys buy from us in Ceramic.

GS1150's have 2pcs 204 and 1pc 305-NR and 1pc 83B031 which is a 305-nr that is 2mm wider. You can use the GS1100 trans kit in the GS1150 if you have a 2mm spacer made. The Reason they put in a 305-NR instead of a 83B031 is you can't get a Heavy Duty version of the 83B031 .

2. the stock bearings have clip grooves in all sizes , they are only needed on the Big ones ( 305-NR ) or ( 83B031) . We sell these to all Trans rebuilders and Mfg's with no clip groove on the small ones with zero problems. Not 1 Prostock or Promod Suzuki out there has a clip groove on the small one.

3. No pins on any , this is not needed and is a stress point on a bearing , the factory motors were not designed to run the HP they now make and when you have a slick and wheelie bar you can actually break the Bearing at the pin. Not to mention if the bearing ever seizes you end up destroying the case from the pin.

4. Heavy Duty Bearings have 2 to 3 extra balls in them, these Bearings can carry up to 35% more load, These are called Max Types, They are big in the Automotive Racing Industry, All the Nascar Trans Bearings are Max Types.


Hap

 

[Guest]

Hope The reply from Taige answered your questions.

I would add that we sell virtually all of these bearings to seasoned GS racers and speed shops. They all know how they fit, etc. We have not had these questions in at least 15 years. It took my guys a few days to get the our memory refreshed, from the bearing supplier and get back to you.

We put these parts in our catalog about 20 years ago, and not having anyone ask questions about them, we had to find out.

Now if you ask our phone guys about GSXR1000 or Hayabusa stuff, they would have the answer right away.

You should remember that the GS motor is older than some of the guys that work here. :lol:

Regards

Jay

 

[Carter Turk]

Hap,

Cool you got those guys to dig up the information. The problem is not all of us are "Prostock guys" who know about the bearings. No mention of a spacer anywhere for 1150 application.

Just let the street guys destroy their engines. Like I said in another post I'm partly to blame for not measuring the bearing, assuming APE was selling me what I needed.

And maybe the young guys at APE need get educated on the older stuff they sell.

Thanks for your efforts, Carter

 

[Guest]

One thing that people discover when first venturing into the world of high performance engine work, it that not everything "bolts in" just like oem parts.

Big cams won't clear unmodified rocker arms, big blocks won't fit stock engine cases, the biggest valves won't fit on stock valve seats, etc. Virtually nothing is like oem.

There is a very stout learning curve to engine modifiying. One needs to accept this if they want to learn and become one of the knowlegable ones.

Therefore, in order to not 'risk damaging your street engine" we strongly suggest having the modifications done by reputable engine shops with the experience necessary.

Regards

Jay

 

[Carter Turk]

Jay,

In the future, is there any chance you folks would include a spacer or mention of it when the application is for an 1150?

Judging by this website alone, it appears there are a lot us who work on our own bikes with varying degrees of skill or knowledge or lack thereof.

Thanks for your previous replies, Carter

 

[earlfor]

This has all been very interesting. More info to tuck away in my beady little brain. thanks guys.

Earl

 

[Hap Call]

Thanks Jay for checking in on us. The info is very valuable!

On another note, I've discovered that you can indeed split you cases without pulling the top end!

Hap