1166 Kit Engine Knock

[zooke-158]

To check Piston to Head clearance. I have removed the plugs and using very soft solder, maneuvered it around the valves and rotating the crank pressing the solder. Then take a measurement. I did this on three different areas in the combustion chamber, kind of like a triangle.

 

[rosco15]

If your pistons are set level with the top of your block. "0-deck height" Your piston to head clearance should be fine. Using the supplied gasket. Also assuming this is low compression motor.

To check piston to valve just us a screw driver. Put the screw driver under the cam and leverage down on the rocker arm. I use a little duck tape where the screw driver hits the adjuster. Helps avoid damage. You need to check it around 8 deg plus or minus a bit.

Just a thought, but did you use one of the unbreakable cam chain guides. The stock ones can break pretty easily. Make a terrible racket.

 

[Boozy Creek Beast]

Last night I planned to take apart my top end but had a family issue and was unable. I will do the work tonight. I started the bike again and by using a screw driver pressed to my ear (showed to me by a Suzuki tech) I was able to better understand were the knock is coming from. I now belive that it is not in the Timing but it seams to be a valve tap and I may need to purchase a cylinder spacer. A.P.E sells them in 9 different sizes from .020 through .750. The only problem now is which one. How would I determin the size I need? Any the biggest question is what should I check to make sure that I did not damage any components such as the Valves of the pistons.

Thanks for everything!!! I do not know what I would have done with out all of your help.

The Beast

 

[rosco15]

Before you take it apart make sure you adjuster screws are set right. You should have 6-8 thou from the adjuster to the tip of the valve. Don't check between the cam lobe and the rocker arm. Check between adjuster and valve. I had to make a custom tool to get down in there. A loose one will also make a bit of noise.

I'm assuming your talking about a spacer to space the block up. When you get the head off put the #1 and #4 pistons to top dead center with the block still on. Check to be sure the piston is level with the top of the block. Down in the hole is bad and sticking out over the top of the block is also bad. If the piston is sticking up past the block then you need a thicker gasket. I think cometic can hook you up to about .060. I would think a thicker gasket would be better than a spacer plate. If the valve is hitting the piston you should see marks from the valves on the piston. The vlave is harder. I have pics of that if you want.

I had my valves touching pistons and it didn't make any noise I heard. heck another guy I race with had his pistons actually touching the head. It also never made any noise. If you can hand crank the motor around then I would suspect your problem is someplace else.

Now have at it and keep us updated.

 

[Boozy Creek Beast]

Well I have taken the head off and I am very pleased to say that there seams to be know damage to the pistons, cylander's or the valves. The only thing I can see is a very very small almost unnoticable half moon ring in the 3rd and 4th cylander, right side exhaust, piston valve port. The ring is so small that I almost didn't even notice it. As for the piston TDC cylander clearance, the pistons at TDC are completly flush with the top of the cylander. I checked it the only way I could by rubbing my fingers over each piston as it was set at TDC and they all were smooth as a baby's rear end.
So where do we go now. I was talking with a tech at A.P.E. and he thinks that my cams are out of time. I would also like a little more information about the adjuster screw idea that Rosco15 brought up as I am not really sure what he is talking about. I don't belive I need a spacer or even a thicker gaskit to stop the knocking I just need better adjustments on my cams and timeing. I have been told a couple of different valve setting and I would like to know what you all think. I set my Valve at .005. Should the be .006 through .008? What seams to be the best setting.

 

[Guest]

If you have a big bore kit and stock cams, there is no way you will have piston to valve contact unless you have the cams out of time.

Jay

 

[RacingJake]

So you are saying the halfmoon marks are on the pistons at the valve reliefs?? And there is no marks on the combustion chamber area where the top of the piston could be hitting the head.

Usually it's the intake valve's that make contact with the pistons due to too much advance intake cam timming. What type of cams are you running. If 3 and 4 have touched most likely 1 and 2 where touching too not unless you where running more valve to rocker clearence.

Also check the valve guides for cracks or missing pieces inside the ports since the valves hit the pistons the valve stem will flex and could break the tip of the guide off.

Another way to tell if the valve's are making hard contact with the pistons is to check the area between the valve tip and rocker arm adjustment screw. If it looks like a jackhammer has been in there that could be a warning sign.

So it sounds just like a cam timing issue, maybe it jump a few teeth when you where trying that other tensioner. Install a new head gasket, set cam timing and tensioner at TDC, set valve/rocker clearance, check valve to piston clearance 50thou on intake and 75thou on exhaust at 15 degrees before TDC working your way to 15 degrees after TDC. Just make sure your on the intake stroke and exhaust stroke.

Good Luck

 

[Boozy Creek Beast]

Sorry I was very tired last night when I sent that post. The half moon rings are on the intake valves. Sorry for the confussion. I will start working on the Cam timing tonight. With all of the Cam chain tensioner problems I have had I more than likely skipped a tooth there for throwing off my cam timing. I will put it back together and let you know the results.

The Beast

 

[RacingJake]

Hey that's not a problem, forgot to asked if you are using adjustable cam sprockets.

You can't really trust the notches on the end of the cams, they could be off alittle. That's why I use a degree wheel, dial indicator just to make sure the cams are openning and closing at the right time.

 

[Boozy Creek Beast]

Jake,
I have a set of adjustable cam sprocket but I am useing the stock ones at this time. I am a good novice tech and would love to use the adjustable sprockets but I have never done the work and I do not have a dial indicator. Are they expensive? I am a little nervious doing the work for the first time by myself and would appreciate it if you could let me know the basics. It can't be that hard and with everything that I have done so far it would be a shame to not complete the job.

The Beast

 

[Boozy Creek Beast]

Jake,
I have been looking through the internet for Dial indicator / Mag. Base sets and I have come across a wide range of prices and was wondering how exact should the dial indicator be. I have sean prices that range from 34.00 to 600.00 that include the dail indicator and base holder. I am not drag racing. I will just be riding.

The Beast

 

[Billy Ricks]

Jake,
I have been looking through the internet for Dial indicator / Mag. Base sets and I have come across a wide range of prices and was wondering how exact should the dial indicator be. I have sean prices that range from 34.00 to 600.00 that include the dail indicator and base holder. I am not drag racing. I will just be riding.

The Beast

JC Whitney has some cheap decent sets. If you're willing to pay shipping both ways I'll loan you mine. For what that would cost you might be able to come close to buying a set. Here's a link to a free degree wheel.
http://www.tavia.com/free_degree_wheel.html

 

[Boozy Creek Beast]

Thanks but I have a dial guage and thanks alot for the loan but I will go ahead a purchase one since I have found I set for as low as $19.00. My brother has 2 GSes and I am sure he will want to do the same work. More than likely I will not buy the the cheepest one but spend a few extra bucks and get something that will last. As for the advice in doing the work Biker 66 has a nice layout on his web site. Check it out and let me know what you think.

http://medlem.spray.se/biker661/index.html

The Beast

 

[RacingJake]

Once you get it back together and the cam notches are facing each other and the cam chain tensioner is installed and adjusted then turn just one rocker arm screws in so that there is no clearance between the valve tip and rocker. All you got to do to check valve to piston clearance is turn the motor over by hand and watch the degree wheel as it gets to 15 degree's before top dead center and the intake lobe is starting to open the intake valve. Get a big flatside screwdriver and wedge it under the cam on a non-machine surface and push down on that rocker arm. Take a filler gauge with 50 thousands thickness or a few added up to 50 thou and see if it will go between the rocker and camshaft. then turn the crank a few degrees and try again until you get to 15 degrees past TDC. You can do the same thing on the exhaust cam too as long as your on the exhaust stroke but use 75thou.

If the intake valve hit the piston or you don't have 50 thous clearance then just loosen up the adjustable intake cam sprocket and and turn the crank CW a hair and retighen the cam sprocket bolts, you have just retarded the intake cam alittle and need to re-check the V/P clearance. The exhaust cam is a little trickier and hopefully you won't have to mess with it.

Below is what I bought from Schnitz's. Works pretty good, as for the degrees wheel I just printed one up off a web site. It may have been from here??

http://secure.mycart.net/catalogs/catalog.asp?prodid=328287&showprevnext=1

This take alittle time and practice, If you do go make a few dry runs first until it make sence before changing cam timing.

Things to remember,

Always turn the crank CW never CCW

For lobe separation, Take the first reading R1 at 40 thousand valve lift then the second R2 at 40 thousand before the valve closes. R1+R2+180 divided by 2 minus R1 or the lowest of the two numbers. Remember to count backwards from 180 on the degree wheel when trying to figure out the closing event degree.

There are a few web site's that talk about it too.

Hope this make sence cause I'm still confused?

 

[Billy Ricks]

Maybe this one Jake?

 

[RacingJake]

yeap that's it!

 

[RacingJake]

Jake,
I have been looking through the internet for Dial indicator / Mag. Base sets and I have come across a wide range of prices and was wondering how exact should the dial indicator be. I have sean prices that range from 34.00 to 600.00 that include the dail indicator and base holder. I am not drag racing. I will just be riding.

The Beast

You want one that has enough travel and also has the extension kit that screws into the dial indicator. This make it alot easier to find TDC through the sparkplug hole and also when setting the dial indicator on the retainers.

Anything over $75 is too much I think

 

[Boozy Creek Beast]

PROBLEM SOLVED!!!!!!!

It turned out to be 2 problems caused by 1 item. The Cam Chain Tentioner. I had replaced the old one with a new Manual one that I got from A.P.E. but did not adjust it correctly. That allowed my cam chain to slip causeing the knock that was exaggerated by the rattleing cam chain. I re-timed the cam and tightened up the cam chain tentioner and now it runs and sound great.

Thanks again for all of the help,
The Beast

 

[RacingJake]

That's Great \\/

 

[rosco15]

excellent...............