3 years and still no love...

[lwitter]

Thanks for the great site. Most of the things I have done on this bike I have learned about from this site. Here is my (sob!) story:

I bought a 1982 1100GLZ 3 years ago and have been working on it off and on for 3 years. The plan was to tinker around with it and learn a bit about old bikes. Problem is, I still can?t get it to start.

Details: I bought the bike in the dead of a Minnesota winter when it was below zero so did not attempt to start. Just verified it turned over. I pulled the jug and replaced the gasket with an Athena. I then pulled the valves and cleaned them up along with all the passages using degreaser. I put new oil seals and valve springs in. When I put the jug back on, I cracked a ring and replaced it with a new one. After putting it back together I did a compression check and all were at 125+ except the one I replaced was now at 85. I put a 4 into 1 Mac pipe on it. I checked the valve clearances and put in a couple new disks to get it within spec. I replaced the intake boots and weather stripped the airbox. I dipped the carb and cleaned all passages with a carb cleaning wire verifying that the enricher tube was clear and carb cleaner can be sent through it and out the proper hole. The float bowl also has free passage where the enricher tube fits in. (the carbs have been dipped three times since it last ran). Tank is clean and I replaced the petcock with new one. I then replaced the coils with 3 Ohm green dynatechs. I fitted a dyna 2000 ignition and crank trigger on the bike and replaced the Regulator / Rectifier with a new aftermarket one from I think Ricks Motorsports. I put the relay in as suggested to get 12v to the coils. I have verified that it is working. I replaced the plugs and gapped to about .026. Replaced battery this year and fully charged. Plugs are getting spark, seems pretty small but is blue.

It still won?t start. Here are the current symptoms. Tank is pulled, have a funnel taped to fuel intake and filled to top of fuel inlet tube. Bike turns over but will not fire. I sprayed starter fluid into cylinder and replaced plugs. Gives just a little flutter but won?t fire. Adjusted air screws to 1.75 out from seated. Same result. Pulled airbox and shot starter fluid into carbs as turning over. Still just a bit of a flutter of firing and then nothing. Continues to crank over but nothing happening.

Here are the options I am currently considering:
1. Recheck valve clearances ? is the starter fluid not getting into the cylinder due to an overly tight intake valve? Still, it seems like it should fire when sprayed directly into the cylinder. Again, it just gives a weak little flutter when sprayed directly into cylinder.
2. Check the float heights ? this should not prevent running on starter fluid though.

Am I missing something?

 

[Allie]

Are you getting spark?

You need three things to run; compression, ignition, and fuel. It sounds like you've got enough compression to run, starting fluid should bypass the fuel issue temporarily, so the simplest thing to do first is probably to verify that you have adequate spark, and that it is getting there at the right time. Ignition is pretty simple, re-check everything even if you think it's right. Also make sure you have enough juice to turn the engine over with vigor. A weakish battery can be problematic especially if your state of tune is 'a bit off'.

 

[850GT_Rider]

Thanks for the great site. Most of the things I have done on this bike I have learned about from this site. Here is my (sob!) story:

I bought a 1982 1100GLZ 3 years ago and have been working on it off and on for 3 years. The plan was to tinker around with it and learn a bit about old bikes. Problem is, I still can?t get it to start.

Details: I bought the bike in the dead of a Minnesota winter when it was below zero so did not attempt to start. Just verified it turned over. I pulled the jug and replaced the gasket with an Athena. I then pulled the valves and cleaned them up along with all the passages using degreaser. I put new oil seals and valve springs in. When I put the jug back on, I cracked a ring and replaced it with a new one. After putting it back together I did a compression check and all were at 125+ except the one I replaced was now at 85. I put a 4 into 1 Mac pipe on it. I checked the valve clearances and put in a couple new disks to get it within spec. I replaced the intake boots and weather stripped the airbox. I dipped the carb and cleaned all passages with a carb cleaning wire verifying that the enricher tube was clear and carb cleaner can be sent through it and out the proper hole. The float bowl also has free passage where the enricher tube fits in. (the carbs have been dipped three times since it last ran). Tank is clean and I replaced the petcock with new one. I then replaced the coils with 3 Ohm green dynatechs. I fitted a dyna 2000 ignition and crank trigger on the bike and replaced the Regulator / Rectifier with a new aftermarket one from I think Ricks Motorsports. I put the relay in as suggested to get 12v to the coils. I have verified that it is working. I replaced the plugs and gapped to about .026. Replaced battery this year and fully charged. Plugs are getting spark, seems pretty small but is blue.

It still won?t start. Here are the current symptoms. Tank is pulled, have a funnel taped to fuel intake and filled to top of fuel inlet tube. Bike turns over but will not fire. I sprayed starter fluid into cylinder and replaced plugs. Gives just a little flutter but won?t fire. Adjusted air screws to 1.75 out from seated. Same result. Pulled airbox and shot starter fluid into carbs as turning over. Still just a bit of a flutter of firing and then nothing. Continues to crank over but nothing happening.

Here are the options I am currently considering:
1. Recheck valve clearances ? is the starter fluid not getting into the cylinder due to an overly tight intake valve? Still, it seems like it should fire when sprayed directly into the cylinder. Again, it just gives a weak little flutter when sprayed directly into cylinder.
2. Check the float heights ? this should not prevent running on starter fluid though.

Am I missing something?

Highlighted items:
Mac 4-1 is going to make it lean.
What filter element in airbox? Stock or aftermarket? Some aftermarket ones allow more air than stock.
New Dyna & trigger - as Allie said - sparking at right time? Triple check the timing
Try air screws at 2.5 turns out for initial setting.
Some of these bikes won't run at all with airbox off. Combined with aftermarket exhaust would make it REALLY lean.

I see a few things that could stack up to a really lean mixture.

 

[tkent02]

Recheck your cam timing.

 

[Griffyn]

I'm with Tom on this one. Timing. Cam timing can cause things to go totally awry and is easy to get a tooth off even for those of us who do it a lot.

Also, that small spark comment makes it sound like maybe something in all your new ignition electrics is not doing the job. Could be a weak battery not able to charge those new coils? But even with just a little spark, if your cam and ignition timing are on target then a squirt of spray-start should have her kicking over.

 

[tom203]

Me too! check cams to crank timing, verify plug wires are on right plugs, check for spark at plugs; due some cranking with "choke" on, then inspect plugs to see any traces of fuel. Starter fluid as last resort.

 

[tatu]

Also, are the plug leads and low tension coil wires in correct order?

 

[BigD_83]

+1...sure sounds like a timing issue

 

[Guest]

Post your location. There are many GS'rs around who would stop over and lend and hand. That might be the quickest route to resolution.

 

[tkent02]

After three years I doubt if a quick resolution is really on his mind.

 

[lwitter]

Thanks much for the ideas. I will be working through them, starting with timing, this weekend. BTW, I am in Plymouth, MN. Thanks again.

 

[gs550rebuildguy]

Just an idea

Just an idea

I bought those green coils to from dyna and... they are DARN close to the brackets and while I was checking power balance one day I did see a spark hop to the frame with one plug pulled
If you don't see the fourth of july coming out of those plugs you may be getting a partial drain from the screws in the back of the coils where the 12v wires feed into them
I also screwed up and put my relay on wrong and put a hot wire where the ground was supposed to go.
As you prolly know the ignition wire gets hot as you start it...maybe go online like I did and check where all four wires are supposed to go if you have spade connectors its easy to get a little mixed up...

 

[lwitter]

I agree they are very close to those posts. I was wondering about that too, and right now I have the coils just temporarily strapped to the frame so that does not happen. But, I will need to deal with it eventually. I have already cross wired the relay and burned out the first one. I now have a new relay, verified locations of the wires, and have checked all the vitals with the multitester. I am pretty confident it is working now as I get a nice "click" in it when I turn on the ignition and it seems to be puting 12v to the coils when the ignition is on and close to zero when ignition is off.

 

[lwitter]

Highlighted items:
Mac 4-1 is going to make it lean.
What filter element in airbox? Stock or aftermarket? Some aftermarket ones allow more air than stock.
New Dyna & trigger - as Allie said - sparking at right time? Triple check the timing
Try air screws at 2.5 turns out for initial setting.
Some of these bikes won't run at all with airbox off. Combined with aftermarket exhaust would make it REALLY lean.

I see a few things that could stack up to a really lean mixture.

The element is stock. I am going to try it with the airbox on and 2.5 turns on the air screws after I recheck the timing this weekend. Battery is on the charger.

 

[lwitter]

Post your location. There are many GS'rs around who would stop over and lend and hand. That might be the quickest route to resolution.

Plymouth, Minnesota

 

[BigD_83]

Plymouth, Minnesota

In the upper left hand corner you'll see your User CP (Control panel)

In there you can post your location and create a signature so you don't have to remember to tell everyone where you are, and on what model you are working. Of course, if you get bitten by the GS bug and end up with multiple bikes, you'll still have to mention it in the title and/or Tag.

 

[lwitter]

In the upper left hand corner you'll see your User CP (Control panel)

In there you can post your location and create a signature so you don't have to remember to tell everyone where you are, and on what model you are working. Of course, if you get bitten by the GS bug and end up with multiple bikes, you'll still have to mention it in the title and/or Tag.

Good point. Here's the current list.

 

[AirCooled]

Airflow for Engines

Airflow for Engines

The element is stock. I am going to try it with the airbox on and 2.5 turns on the air screws after I recheck the timing this weekend. Battery is on the charger.

The engine will not run without the Airbox, TOO LEAN. I'm sure it will start & run on Choke, touch the throttle and it will die. I've learned the hard way! These engines HATE air. The choke....... well, doesn't. It ADDS fuel. The "AIR" needles lean when closed, richen when open. 2.5 turns OPEN is where you start. Stock jets and pods, no good. Gaff Taped off 95% of pods to make it run. 81 GS850GL. Waiting for a stock Airbox to make it RIGHT!
Check battery VOLTAGE. Under 10 Volts, will not induce enough VOLTAGE in the coils to make the LEAP across your plug gap.
I'm a NEW GS'er, but I'm not NEW. Ignition coils are transformers for VOLTAGE, not AMPERAGE.
If you've ever broken a fluorescent tube(WHO HASN'T?!?!), there are NO wires, hence the Ballast, which Induces High Voltage to LEAP to the other side! Which Excites the gas inside the tube to Glow......
If Cam Timing or Ignition timing are off, well.............. Cams are for proper flow of AIR, The engine will RUN on 2 cylinders, easily......... so Ignition timing is not as Critical.

My 1/2 cents worth.

Scott

 

[lwitter]

update

update

I pulled the carbs and checked the float heights. They were off a bit so adjusted each to spec, but likely that was not a problem. I put the airscrews at 2.5 out and put the airbox back on with the stock element. checked the advance on the dynatech trigger and set to 35 degrees. Tried it and it was making a bit of noise like it wanted to start. I decided to recheck the compression since it was a couple years ago that I checked it. I was way off on my memory. Compression was actually 56, 85, 90, 80. All below the recommended level for overhaul (100 psi) per the manual. Damn! Well, it will make a darn good parts bike anyway. Just out of curiosity, would a bike be able to run with this level of compression if the fuel, air, timing etc was all working?

 

[AirCooled]

I pulled the carbs and checked the float heights. They were off a bit so adjusted each to spec, but likely that was not a problem. I put the airscrews at 2.5 out and put the airbox back on with the stock element. checked the advance on the dynatech trigger and set to 35 degrees. Tried it and it was making a bit of noise like it wanted to start. I decided to recheck the compression since it was a couple years ago that I checked it. I was way off on my memory. Compression was actually 56, 85, 90, 80. All below the recommended level for overhaul (100 psi) per the manual. Damn! Well, it will make a darn good parts bike anyway. Just out of curiosity, would a bike be able to run with this level of compression if the fuel, air, timing etc was all working?

The engine will "RUN" at those compression levels, will it pull a "Load"? It's 600lbs plus + of bike, plus YOU, which COULD be a Plus + as well!
Compression...... it's tricky. I believe I read You pulled the "Jugs"? Those would be cylinders. As an EX Diesel Mechanic, Service Manager, Warranty Manager, AND the Head of Failure Analysis, for AirCooled Diesels, no less,
I'm confident in what I have to say.
A gasoline engine, ie: Spark Ignited, compression is LESS of an issue than air/fuel mixtures and cam/ignition timing. An old Chevy 327 with HOLES burned through the tops of the pistons will "RUN" if everything else is right. Will it TAKE YOU anywhere"? No. And it's also a GREAT Mosquito Fogger! A FACT I have personal experience with!
WHERE is the compressed "AIR" going? Pull your oil filler cap, check for a breeze............
By the way, if you DID tear that engine down to the crankcase, if your cam timing is off, you'll never achieve compression. Does it push AIR out of the carb intakes? You'd have to hold the throttle wide open when you're cranking to know.........
If valves are open at TDC on compression stroke, no compression, period. The BEST compression test is a cylinder "leakdown" test, not a screw in gauge. It's the ONLY way a Diesel Tech checks compression........
My 850 has a blown head gasket, and I KNOW the valve lash needs to be set......... I have a cylinder down to 80psi with a gauge, the others are around 115, so it runs rough, it STILL scares me at WOT! The Power Band on this bike is at the higher RPMs, between 3500 to 8500........ No place to ride like that in the Tampa area......... I'm not physically ready for this bike.......... 6 months ago I was facing Amputation of my right foot. It's healing, very slowly.............
I hit the speed limit on the street 45mph in 1st to 2nd gear....... shift to third to cruise, occasionally it'll see 4th..........

Just my personal thoughts and opinions..........

Scott