'80 GS450 twin, electrical issues

[Trevor76]

Hi all.

After posting up an introduction in the "GS owners" section of the forums, the discussion quickly turned to my newly purchased GS450 twin -and more specifically its electrical issues.

I've already been given a lot of helpful advice in that thread but I've moved the topic here as I figured it was more appropriate.

After posting pics of my bike it was determined that It has been fitted with a CDI from an '83, the electrical plate is incorrect, there are points where there should be a cdi pickup, and there is no fuse to be found...

Basically its a mess and my plan is to overhaul the electrics completely. My first thought was to source all model/year correct parts and try to patch it all together as close to stock as possible.

Now I am thinking I will go with the Boyer-Brandsen Micro-Digital Electronic Ignition System, along with a rec/reg unit from Rick's Motorsports (I already have the rec/reg).

Seems to me that this would be a cheaper, more reliable solution than trying to find used oem parts in good working order on Ebay.

I dug through old threads and it seems that Boyer-Brandsen have a good reputation here.

So really I'm just looking for affirmation that the B-B EI unit, along with the new Rec/Reg, would be the way to go...
Am I correct in my understanding that switching to these units does away with the CDI/ignitor box altogether?

The EI unit does utilize the stock coils, I have two pair now so hopefully one will do the trick.

Also the battery is new-ish and seem s to be in good shape.

Thanks in advance for any insight.

 

[Guest]

So... just to clarify... the R/R doesn't have any effect on the ignition except to ensure it gets between about 12 and 15v, so that's a separate topic to the ignition.

However, replacing the stock R/R is always a good idea

As to the Boyer Bransden, then yes I believe it does make the ignitor redundant.

Also, our bikes don't actually have CDI at all, we have transistorised ignition, not capacitor discharge ignition...

However, it's looking like you can go the Dynatek DS3-3C path as well... check my ignitior thread as I've just did an update tonight...

 

[Trevor76]

Thanks for the clarification, I'm mystified by the black art of electronics. I don't really know what part does what job. I do know that it's been said many times that the charging system is suspect on these GS twins so I ordered the rec/reg.

Flaming Chainsaws already corrected me on the CDI/ignitor issue, I keep falling back on calling it the CDI probably because that's what everyone on Ebay calls 'em -In any event I'll be glad to get rid of it and go with a E.I. unit.

I'll check that thread, maybe it will help my understanding.

BTW nice work on the scrambler...

 

[Flaming Chainsaws]

I think it's spelled igniter according to this.

Good luck on this electrical problem. I think the Boyer Brandsen will eliminate the igniter but I'm not sure.

 

[mike_of_bbg]

I didn't think the B-B ignitions were sold in the U.S. any longer - got a link?

Oh, and while Pete is technically correct about the voltage and ignition, I believe it is over-charging that frequently kills the transistorized ignition systems we have. So replacing the R/R is probably a good idea if it's charging out of spec in any way.

 

[Guest]

I didn't think the B-B ignitions were sold in the U.S. any longer - got a link?

Oh, and while Pete is technically correct about the voltage and ignition, I believe it is over-charging that frequently kills the transistorized ignition systems we have. So replacing the R/R is probably a good idea if it's charging out of spec in any way.

100% Mike, I would agree, just didn't want Trevor to be under the impression that the R/R affected the ignition function as such

And FC, you funny fellas in the US spell it igniter... us Aussies and the English folk spell it ignitor... color/colour, neighbor/neighbour... you know...

 

[cowboyup3371]

100% Mike, I would agree, just didn't want Trevor to be under the impression that the R/R affected the ignition function as such

And FC, you funny fellas in the US spell it igniter... us Aussies and the English folk spell it ignitor... color/colour, neighbor/neighbour... you know...

Well, if you all had paid attention to your grammar classes we wouldn't have this problem now would we?

 

[Trevor76]

Ha ha, the spell check on my computer tells me I'm wrong either way so I've used both.

There's a british Ebay vendor selling the Boyer Brandsen E.I. units for a variety of GS models. They have kits with and without coils.

here ya' go:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Boyer-Bransden-Suzuki-GS-and-GSX-Electronic-Ignition-/380184696149?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts&hash=item5884c61555#ht_737wt_1139

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Boyer-Bransden-Suzuki-GS-GSX-Micro-Power-Ignition-/150394614693?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts&hash=item230437b3a5#ht_911wt_1139

And yes, it eliminates the igniter. And the ignitor.

 

[Trevor76]

Oh and I went ahead and ordered it by the way. So as soon as I get it I will be on here asking some very specific questions I'm sure. The instructions are availabe on the B-B website and I've already reviewed them, they look fairly straightforward. Well at least until step 13, when it starts to get crazy but hopefully will make sense when I've got it all in front of me.

http://www.boyerbransden.com/pdf/KIT00091__BOX00034_.pdf

But, if it eliminates the igniter then shouldn't there be a lot of wiring cut out too?

Also, I now have two sets of coils: the pair that were on the bike when I bought it, and the pair that I got off of Ebay because the former owner said it needed new ones.

So, the pair that were on the bike have condensers wired into them, and look to be stock when compared to the schematics at bikebandit:
http://www.bikebandit.com/1980-suzuki-gs450et-electrical/o/m6029sch265401
(but considering all of the other "mods" this bike has endured I'm not betting on anything).

The set I bought on Ebay were labeled as 80-83 GS450, but have no condensers wired in.

What gives?

I am QUICKLY learning that sourcing parts for this bike is much more complicated than my Honda cl350, where all model years and designations are 99% interchangeable.

 

[Guest]

Aaaaah... as I suspected, the Boyer units disable the mechanical advance mechanism and introduce their own electronic advance, which is what step 13 is telling you in a very roundabout and confusing way. I suspect as you say that it will be much easier when you can see it in front of you.

While they eliminate the stock ignitor, they do introduce their own transistor box which is what does the electronic advance, but note that with the points setups, there is no ignitor, so their use of the stock plugs etc. may not also be a direct bolt in as they'll be counting on the wiring harness not having a connector for the ignitor.

It also sounds to me like these are really designed for the early 400's with points going by the text and diagram at the bottom, which means I would expect it to possibly not be a 100% straight bolt in.

You also may or may not need to manufacture some clearance for the oil pressure switch like I'm doing with the Dynatek. The reason for that is the early 400's with points didn't have the oil pressure switch in with the points.

Expect also to have to run your own wire for the oil pressure switch as it's typically part of the signal generator wiring, although yours may be different seeing as they retrofitted points already.

As for the coils, I can't remember the technical reason but coils for points ignitions tend to have condensors on them, something to do with suppressing high frequency for radio interference or something along those lines. The coils without condensors would be for an electronic ignition (my stock coils don't have condensors).

I don't know if there's an impedance difference between the coils (the key bit to determine what coils to use) but they do say in the note up to the top that they expect 3 - 4 ohms and that either points or electronic type coils will be fine, so get out your multimeter and check the resistance between the orange/white and white on the left coil and the orange/white and black/yellow on the right coil.

Honduhs are easy because they didn't make them as awesome as our GS'

 

[mike_of_bbg]

You also may or may not need to manufacture some clearance for the oil pressure switch like I'm doing with the Dynatek. The reason for that is the early 400's with points didn't have the oil pressure switch in with the points.

Sorry to thread-jack a second but - Pete, you're blazing the trail down that road? The oil sender is a good reason why Dyna would not list compatibility. Note they don't list the DS3-2 for GS650s, but it fits if clearance is made for the oil sender on the backing plate (for G models; E's don't need that). That would be great news for twin owners if it works

OK, back to your regularly-scheduled thread already in progress...

 

[Guest]

Sorry to thread-jack a second but - Pete, you're blazing the trail down that road? The oil sender is a good reason why Dyna would not list compatibility. Note they don't list the DS3-2 for GS650s, but it fits if clearance is made for the oil sender on the backing plate (for G models; E's don't need that). That would be great news for twin owners if it works

OK, back to your regularly-scheduled thread already in progress...

Yeah I am, check out my ignitor thread (in my sig. below)... I'm feeding it all back to Dyna (they've got some awesome customer service going on there) so hopefully it ends up like that but we'll wait and see... I've gotta get it going first of course

As it stands there's about 0.5 - 1mm of clearance for the oil pressure switch, but it's a little close for comfort... and it would definitely be great news for us twin owners! I've lost count of the guys looking for ignitors and buying dodgy used ones that don't work...

Anyway, please resume normal operations now

 

[Trevor76]

Um, I don't know what all this talk about the oil sender means, the manufacturer makes no mention of having to modify anything for fitment...

Which means nothing, of course. I've become quite accustomed to people selling
"plug 'n' play" parts that arrive with small print informing you that some re-wiring, grinding, cutting, hacking or other form of alteration is necessary to make their part work with the motorcycle it is intended for.

 

[Guest]

Um, I don't know what all this talk about the oil sender means, the manufacturer makes no mention of having to modify anything for fitment...

Which means nothing, of course. I've become quite accustomed to people selling
"plug 'n' play" parts that arrive with small print informing you that some re-wiring, grinding, cutting, hacking or other form of alteration is necessary to make their part work with the motorcycle it is intended for.

Yeah that's why I reckon (like the Dynatek) that it's actually made to replace the points ignition on the earlier models, otherwise they should be mentioning the oil pressure switch.

Look at that pic which is the stock signal generator in place, and you'll see the cut out in the bottom with the orangey/red thing behind the wiring. That there orange thing is the oil pressure switch.

Here's a clearer shot of the switch with the signal generator removed (it has the Dynatek rotor installed here):

Also note that the Dynatek rotor there is bolted to the advance plate, which is the bit with the springs and weights on it there. That's what advances and retards the sparks at different rev's. The idea is that as the rev's increase, the sparks need to happen slightly earlier to combust the fuel at the optimal time in the 4 stroke cycle.

So, now compare the stock signal generator to the Dynatek plate and you will see no allowance for the oil pressure switch:

I suspect by the description that the Boyer Bransden will put you in the same scenario.

There is barely enough clearance with the Dynatek that I don't have to modify it if I don't want to, but I think I will probably end up grinding a shallow indent in the edge of the plate near where the oil pressure switch screw terminal is:

A wire is supposed to be attached to that screw in the oil pressure switch there which is what turns the oil pressure light on and off in your gauge cluster.

That wire is normally a part of the signal generator wiring with the stock setup, so by putting the Dynatek in it means I will need to run a separate wire just for the oil pressure switch, and I suspect with the Boyer you will need to do the same.

Is this making any sense yet?

 

[Trevor76]

A LOT more sense than it did before, thanks! The pics are incredibly helpful, I am a visual learner. I now have the points plate that was on the bike as well as the pickup plate that I ordered from Ebay (the one that FC said probably won't work -it came in but I haven't opened it, planned on sending it back for a refund but now wondering if I may need any parts off of it...)

forgive my total and complete newbish ignorance, but what if the oil pressure indicator just wasn't wired in? I mean it doesn't actually affect the performance of the motor, it's just a "dumy light" put there to warn you of trouble...right?

 

[Guest]

A LOT more sense than it did before, thanks! The pics are incredibly helpful, I am a visual learner. I now have the points plate that was on the bike as well as the pickup plate that I ordered from Ebay (the one that FC said probably won't work -it came in but I haven't opened it, planned on sending it back for a refund but now wondering if I may need any parts off of it...)

forgive my total and complete newbish ignorance, but what if the oil pressure indicator just wasn't wired in? I mean it doesn't actually affect the performance of the motor, it's just a "dumy light" put there to warn you of trouble...right?

Once you get it unpacked, shoot pic's up of what you have.

To make it easiest, take a pic of each that includes attached wiring, including points plate, signal generator, both ignitors, and the Boyer igntion once it arrives (do the others you have now).

I'm also a bit of a visual/hands-on learner, which is why I'm having so much grief with the HEI setup, but I know I can get it to work if I persevere.

The problem with not having the oil pressure switch wired up is that if your oil pump fails you won't know soon enough to shut the engine down and prevent major damage...

 

[Guest]

Actually I just went back to your intro. thread and found this again:

You can see that they kindly left the oil pressure switch disconnected for you, and I would definitely not be leaving it like that permanently.

Once I've done it, I'll share pic's of how I hook mine up independently so you can do the same.

Basically what I plan on doing is locating the oil pressure switch wire in the harness that goes up to the gauge cluster, and I will cut that on the gauge side and put a male and female bullet connector in, then I can make a lead that has a fork type connector on one end for the switch and a bullet connector the other end to connect to the gauges.

That way, I can choose between the stock wiring and the individual switch wire.

I hope that made some sense...

 

[Trevor76]

Yes, I follow you -in theory at least.

So here are photos of all of the parts that I have stockpiled thus far (with the exception of the ignitor box that came on the bike, because it allegedly doesn't work and we concluded that it was incorrect anyway)

Coils that came on the bike:

"new" coils. The numbers on the post-it note is all that is stamped on the coil

The ignitor box I bought, and probably won't need if this EI unit works out.

 

[Flaming Chainsaws]

What is that metal cylinder thingy on the coils in the top picture?

The coils in the bottom picture look exactly like my 1980 GS450's.

 

[Trevor76]

Here is the brand-spankin'-new Reg/Rec unit from Rick's motorsports:

The points plate and hardware that were on the bike...

...and the pickup unit that just came in the mail. I'll hold onto it until I know what I need to mount the EI unit, then the rest will go on sale in the classifieds.

In addition to the EI unit being shipped in, I also picked up a wiring harness for a good price off of Ebay. It looks to be in good shape. No telling whats been hacked off of the bike considering all of the changes that have been made, I think it's a good idea to start with a stock harness.

Also I will need to purchase a set of NGK boots rated for 5K ohms to handle the output from the EI unit, and I will replace the original glass fuse with a modern blade type holder.

And I have a new signal relay unit from Electrosport, leftover from the Honda build. I should probably replace the starter solenoid sooner than later but it sounds as if it's doing it's job for now...

Anyway, that's where I'm at for now. hopefully it will all be here by the time I have an evening of dedicated garage time.



And finally the correct gear cluster, with the gauges guaranteed to work by the seller. We shall see...