'80 GS450 twin, electrical issues

[Trevor76]

Oh hey FC, I missed your reply as I was preparing the second photo post. They are condensers I believe, and actually look stock when compared to the schematics drawing at bikebandit.com

 

[Flaming Chainsaws]

Oh hey FC, I missed your reply as I was preparing the second photo post. They are condensers I believe, and actually look stock when compared to the schematics drawing at bikebandit.com

Must have come off of a different model because I know that the 1980-1982 GS450's don't have them.

A stock wiring harness is a good start. So... You have an igniter, coils, and an R/R. Still not sure about the pick ups you have right now. And you need a fuse. But other than that, I think you'll be good to try and start it up again with the stock parts, that is if the igniter works.

 

[Guest]

Ok, first off, I just posted an update in my ignitor thread that will help you out in terms of running a separate wire for the oil pressure switch with the Boyer Bransden setup.

Now as to what you have currently...

Firstly, the coils with condensors are there for the points setup and are necessary because of the points.

The other coils are definitely good for electronic ignition, although I believe you could use the ones with condensors if necessary.

The trick will be to measure the resistance between the pins on the harness connector and if they measure the same (3 to 4 ohms from memory) then all should be good.

Next up, the signal generator and rotor you got off eBay will suit the ignitor that is currently mounted on the bike.

In theory, you could mount the signal generator, put the rotor on the end of the crankshaft, hook it up to the ignitor and Bob's your uncle.

The two parts to that equation I don't know is if you need a plate to mount the rotor to (I expect you will as it should have timing marks on it) and if the ignitor is actually good or not. If they were using that ignitor (the one on the bike now, not what you got from eBay) with the correct (for that model) signal generator, it wouldn't have worked whether or not it was faulty.

I believe that R/R will be good going by other's experience on here...

Good call on the wiring harness and inline blade fuse, I did the same to replace the dodgy glass one.

With the wiring harness, regardless of how good it looks give every connector a good clean with contact cleaner. It's still 30 odd years old...

 

[Trevor76]

Again, many thanks to you guys for taking the time to help me work through this.

Although I'm tempted to try patching it together now, I think I'll wait for the EI unit and wiring harness to come in. I can't really do anything for the next few days anyhow as I watch my son in the daytime and he's too little to take out to the garage.


I will check what you posted in regards to the wiring of the oil switch.

 

[Trevor76]

http://www.bikebandit.com/1980-suzuki-gs450et/o/m6029#sch264025

 

[Guest]

Yeah that's the stock signal generator which is mucho different to what you got off eBay.

What you have from the fiche is this:

 

[Trevor76]

I'm glad you got where I was going with that, Pete. I was trying to upload the actual image but I had to go to work.

I am going to return the pick-up I bought, there's nothing I can use there. I'll take what is left over after return shipping and put toward the correct one.

 

[Guest]

Cool, at this stage I'd probably head towards using the Boyer Bransden. It should work providing you follow the instructions to disable the mechanical advance etc.

A lot of the stuff I'm doing with the Dynatek should help you out, although I don't need to do anything to the advance mechanism as the Dynatek still uses it.

Actually I just had a thought... do they say in the Boyer instructions what the timing advance is set to?

The stock points setups seem to be 20 degrees BTDC below 1650 RPM and 40 degrees BTDC above 3500 RPM, whereas the electronic ignition ones are only 10 degrees BTDC below 1650 RPM, with the above 3500 RPM the same at 40 degrees BTDC.

That says to me that at low rev's, if the Boyer's setup for the points ones, then it's built in advance curve may have it too advanced at low rev's, but the spec's should tell us that to be sure.

 

[Trevor76]

I will look into that for sure. At this point I have everything on order to hook the bike up to stock specs, so if the B-B unit won't work around the oil indicator, or has it's advance curve set too soon, I can always fall back on that.

Today I set about separating the existing wiring loom from the parts that will be wired into the new loom -starter motor, signals, handlebar controls, etc.

Also removed the old (incorrect) gauge cluster and bolted in the new, working one.

pics tomorrow, I've got to shower and go to work!

 

[Guest]

Cool, you'll get it sorted I'm sure

Looking forward to see how you're going...

 

[Trevor76]

Well not much to update, really. I did send the Ebay signal generator back for a partial refund, and found the appropriate unit from a member here (along with the correct electrical mounting plate, and possibly an air filter holder if he can find it). Actually it all worked out pretty well as I get all of these parts for the original cost of the Ebay part...

I am still waiting for the wiring harness and Boyer Brandsen ignition.

In the meantime I have continued to pull the existing wiring apart and label things, but even with careful preperation I am still dreading the idea of putting it all back together. Hopefully the "new" harness will be in good shape as advertised, there's five miles of electrical tape on the current one.

Also I took a look at the fork seals and they need replacing. As luck would have it I had a spare set for the Honda, and a quick cross reference at K&S reveals that both bikes use the same part (makes sense, they're both 33mm forks).

When I drop the forks to do that I will be putting a set of fork gaiters on -also a cl350 leftover. As I write this I have the side covers, headlight bucket and aforementioned gaiters in the dishwasher...my wife thinks I'm doing dishes!

Back to the electrical issue -can this bike's charging system handle a modern xenon bulb?

And does anyone know where I can find a COLOR wiring diagram for the '80 450 E/S?

 

[Flaming Chainsaws]

Maybe this has a colored wiring diagram?

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=181664

If you do buy it, please scan the colored wiring diagrams, put it into PDF file, and then send it to BassCliff.

 

[Trevor76]

Err...for twenty bucks I'd rather get this:http://www.ebay.com/itm/SUZUKI-GS40...45?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts&hash=item43a33af2a5

Full color, inkjet printed and laminated.

But I'd stilll rather find a link somewhere to a FREE one, I'll keep looking...

 

[Flaming Chainsaws]

Err...for twenty bucks I'd rather get this:http://www.ebay.com/itm/SUZUKI-GS40...45?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts&hash=item43a33af2a5

Full color, inkjet printed and laminated.

But I'd stilll rather find a link somewhere to a FREE one, I'll keep looking...

I made a color wiring diagram but I cannot find it... I just took the non-colored wiring diagram, opened it up in paint, then colored in the wires with colors. If I can find it, I'll post it.

 

[Trevor76]

Okay, updates: The Boyer Brandsen EI unit FINALLY came in today after a 2 1/2 week wait. It was caught up somewhere in Canada. As Pete suspected there is no accommodation for the oil pressure switch. I will get back to this later, it's going back in the box for the time being. I am going to get the bike running with stock electrics for now, I should have everything I need.

[/IMG]

Also since I last posted I received an electrical mounting plate as well as the correct signal generator, purchased from a member here for far cheaper than Ebay prices. (thanks, Charlie)...

After a little love with a steel wool pad and a quick coat of rattlecan black, the mounting plate was ready to go on. Here you see that I have begun mounting the electrics to the plate. This plate looks slightly different than the one that the Schematics show for this bike -the lower left portion where the starter solenoid mounts is cut away. No matter, I'm sure I can figure out a solution.

[/IMG]


The wiring harness that I ordered is MUCH nicer than what was on the bike, all wires and connectors seem to be accounted for, and in good shape. I set about cleaning the bullet connectors as best as I could with a can of terminal cleaner. There is really not much dirt on them but they all seem to be off-white with oxidation, is this a big deal?

Here are pics of the signal generator. The metal plate is also pretty oxidized and the covering over the wires is dry and brittle but otherwise seems in decent shape.

[/IMG]

And here is the advancer unit and related hardware. Everything is self explanatory here, except for the small spacer at the bottom.
Where does that go?

[/IMG]


I will be in and out of the garage working on the bike tonight, the plan is to get the new harness in place and begin connecting all of the things that are obvious. The battery will NOT come into the equation yet, are there any other precautions that I need to take to avoid damage?

 

[Guest]

Okay, updates: The Boyer Brandsen EI unit FINALLY came in today after a 2 1/2 week wait. It was caught up somewhere in Canada. As Pete suspected there is no accommodation for the oil pressure switch. I will get back to this later, it's going back in the box for the time being. I am going to get the bike running with stock electrics for now, I should have everything I need.

[/IMG]

Cool, looks like it should be the same deal as the Dynatek which is nearly a straight bolt in. You may or may not grind or sand an indent for the oil pressure switch screw and you will probably need about a 3mm spacer to go under the head of the hex nut on the advance plate.

Also since I last posted I received an electrical mounting plate as well as the correct signal generator, purchased from a member here for far cheaper than Ebay prices. (thanks, Charlie)...

After a little love with a steel wool pad and a quick coat of rattlecan black, the mounting plate was ready to go on. Here you see that I have begun mounting the electrics to the plate. This plate looks slightly different than the one that the Schematics show for this bike -the lower left portion where the starter solenoid mounts is cut away. No matter, I'm sure I can figure out a solution.

[/IMG]

Good stuff! One thing with that electrics tray... while it's great that you painted it (looks good too), you need to ensure any bolt point there that needs to be a ground still provides a good ground.

The starter relay actually goes where you have the R/R (out of the factory anyway)...

Your starter relay's mounts are the grounding points for it, and I would move everything else's grounding point there and make sure there is an extra ground wire from there directly to battery negative.

The wiring harness that I ordered is MUCH nicer than what was on the bike, all wires and connectors seem to be accounted for, and in good shape. I set about cleaning the bullet connectors as best as I could with a can of terminal cleaner. There is really not much dirt on them but they all seem to be off-white with oxidation, is this a big deal?

Here are pics of the signal generator. The metal plate is also pretty oxidized and the covering over the wires is dry and brittle but otherwise seems in decent shape.

[/IMG]

Don't worry about the oxidisation on the plate, just make sure there is 60 - 80 ohms across each pickup coil. That's black/white to brown and black/white to green/white.

As for the connectors, a liberal spray of contact cleaner on the plug and socket then plug/unplug several times and they should be good to go.

The only other way to improve that is to replace them...

And here is the advancer unit and related hardware. Everything is self explanatory here, except for the small spacer at the bottom.
Where does that go?

[/IMG]

Ok, so I see two items my advance unit doesn't have and I don't see one crucial item.

The spacer I have no idea on. The long dowel type bit I don't have either, although I can see where it might need to go through the centre of the advance unit and the bolt may go through it. I don't recall mine being like that but maybe it just isn't separated on mine... if it fits it should be ok I would imagine.

I can't make it out but there's also a thin round bit like a washer that sits on the advance plate underneath the rotor which is what allows it to rotate easily. There's a bit of a groove in the advance plate where it sits.

The crucial bit I don't see is the rotor, on the left in the pic below (there's also a pic of the spacer you probably need with the Boyer I mentioned earlier too):

If you have the rotor but just not pictured, then cool, and it needs to go onto the advance plate with the slots in the side over the protrustions on the weights.

With the advance plate held so the R side is up, the twin magnets on one of the rotor protrusions (pictured) should be on the right side.

I will be in and out of the garage working on the bike tonight, the plan is to get the new harness in place and begin connecting all of the things that are obvious. The battery will NOT come into the equation yet, are there any other precautions that I need to take to avoid damage?

Cool, you'll be in and out during your night, I'm just having my morning coffees before heading in there today

The only other precaution is to take your time and make sure it's connected correctly and take note of where the existing harness routes to get the new one on easier.

Also pay special attention to all the grounds while you're at it and make sure they're perfect.

Good luck!

 

[Trevor76]

Well, I don't have everything I need afterall. No rotor. I thought it looked a little funny when I placed the signal generator into the engine case. Nothing to spin.

I guess it wasn't needed when the PO replaced the signal generator with points.

I'll put a post in the wanted section and see what happens.

Pete, thanks for the heads up about the paint on the electronics plate.
I guess I can buff it with a dremel where the bolts contact the metal.
And yes, the longer spacer definitly belongs on that bolt, maybe the shorter one was fitted in there to make everything fit with the points setup. I never saw where it was fitted in, it fell on the floor when I pulled the points plate out of there and I tossed it in the bag with the rest.

Your starter relay's mounts are the grounding points for it, and I would move everything else's grounding point there and make sure there is an extra ground wire from there directly to battery negative.

Please explain further -by "everything else" you mean the ground wire from the rec/reg, as well as the ground from the ignitor? And then one common, heavy gauge negative cable to the battery? Got a photo illustration?

 

[Guest]

Well, I don't have everything I need afterall. No rotor. I thought it looked a little funny when I placed the signal generator into the engine case. Nothing to spin.

I guess it wasn't needed when the PO replaced the signal generator with points.

I'll put a post in the wanted section and see what happens.

Pete, thanks for the heads up about the paint on the electronics plate.
I guess I can buff it with a dremel where the bolts contact the metal.
And yes, the longer spacer definitly belongs on that bolt, maybe the shorter one was fitted in there to make everything fit with the points setup. I never saw where it was fitted in, it fell on the floor when I pulled the points plate out of there and I tossed it in the bag with the rest.



Please explain further -by "everything else" you mean the ground wire from the rec/reg, as well as the ground from the ignitor? And then one common, heavy gauge negative cable to the battery? Got a photo illustration?

So is that advance plate from the points ignition? If so, then it will be 10 degrees too advanced below 1650 RPM going by what I've seen in the factory manual. I don't know if that's an issue or not, but it does at least explain the need for the spacer as the older ones with points had an 8mm bolt holding it on, whereas our 450's have a 6mm bolt.

As to the electrics plate, yeah just scrape some paint off around the bolt holes, no need to ruin your paint job

Doesn't need to be a heavy gauge wire back to the battery, just similar to what's in use for the other grounds as there shouldn't be a lot of current travelling through it.

I can't really show you a good photo at the moment as I haven't got a battery in mine yet and I'm not using the stock electrics plate and therefore have yet to make up my battery leads.

It sounds like you've got the right idea though, R/R and ignitor ground leads bolted to one of the bolts holding the starter solenoid on, and another lead made up that goes directly from that same bolt back to battery negative.

 

[Trevor76]

Okay, that does make sense and explains the spacers. So I need the entire advance unit. I think I have a lead on one, waiting to hear back.

Regarding the starter solenoid, I found this one from Rick's Motorsports -same guys that make the reg/rec I'm using:

[/IMG]

It has a built-in blade fuse, I'm assuming that would negate the need for an inline fuse? Looks pretty trick, I'm considering buying it and replacing the solenoid sooner than later.

 

[Guest]

Okay, that does make sense and explains the spacers. So I need the entire advance unit. I think I have a lead on one, waiting to hear back.

Regarding the starter solenoid, I found this one from Rick's Motorsports -same guys that make the reg/rec I'm using:

[/IMG]

It has a built-in blade fuse, I'm assuming that would negate the need for an inline fuse? Looks pretty trick, I'm considering buying it and replacing the solenoid sooner than later.

Cool, considering it was working with the points then it might be ok, but obviously not ideal, so it's probably safer to get the right one.

As for the solenoid, is that blade fuse complete separate to the starter circuit? The inline fuse on ours is from the battery positive to feed the main harness, and there is an additional larger gauge wire direct from battery positive to the solenoid to power the starter motor.

The switch for the solenoid is (from memory) a yellow/green wire with a male bullet connector which is fed from the harness via the kill switch, ignition switch, and start button.