U
upb4dawn
Guest
I checked the advancer, it looks fine. Cleaned it up a bit. All looks fine, things move with ease. So, seems this is not an issue.
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R
RayC
Guest
Hi
Just putting my 2 cents in here the fuel screw on the bottoms correct - only matter on idle to just a bit off idle Same for the pilot jets sounds like just a thought 3 &1/2 turns seems like alot and it appears its reflecting on you plugs.
Just start over -pull the carbs -clean all the jets and passages- ck your air cleaner-timing etc. etc.
Maybe I missed the begining of this conversation
Just putting my 2 cents in here the fuel screw on the bottoms correct - only matter on idle to just a bit off idle Same for the pilot jets sounds like just a thought 3 &1/2 turns seems like alot and it appears its reflecting on you plugs.
Just start over -pull the carbs -clean all the jets and passages- ck your air cleaner-timing etc. etc.
Maybe I missed the begining of this conversation
U
upb4dawn
Guest
Thanks.
I'm going over everything each time I've taken the carbs down. Floats are set to spec - 22.4mm. Little screens in there are clean. Passages are clean. Float needles seem to function just fine.
As for timing.. I thought w/ the electronic ignition there was no adjustment for timing. Am I wrong here?
And as for the beginning of the conversation, I've got K&N dual pods, and essentially everything else is stock (mufflers drilled out somewhat). I got a jet kit from 6 Sigma, and am trying all the various possibilities. The jets they sent seem extraordinarily big (but their numbering convention is different than Mikuni). So, I've gotten 120 Mikuni's because that's what seems it should like based on all the conventional wisdom. It starts and idles and runs fine up to about 1/4-1/2 throttle and falls flat at 4000rpm, but likes the choke there and then. Can be coached up to maybe 6-7K, but no more.
Tomorrow it will go back to as close to stock as possible (w/o the airbox), and then I'll work from there. May throw in the big jets again just for the hell of it if that doesn't work or seems to go in the wrong direction.
I see that DynoJet kits have a tapered needle w/ clip settings (the Sigma kit uses the stock needles w/ various spacers), and also a fitting for the air orifice on the right side of the carb (facint the intake side). The Sigma kit does not address this at all. I'm wondering whether this may have something to do w/ it falling flat..
I've also got some hotter plugs coming, since these look dark.
I'm going over everything each time I've taken the carbs down. Floats are set to spec - 22.4mm. Little screens in there are clean. Passages are clean. Float needles seem to function just fine.
As for timing.. I thought w/ the electronic ignition there was no adjustment for timing. Am I wrong here?
And as for the beginning of the conversation, I've got K&N dual pods, and essentially everything else is stock (mufflers drilled out somewhat). I got a jet kit from 6 Sigma, and am trying all the various possibilities. The jets they sent seem extraordinarily big (but their numbering convention is different than Mikuni). So, I've gotten 120 Mikuni's because that's what seems it should like based on all the conventional wisdom. It starts and idles and runs fine up to about 1/4-1/2 throttle and falls flat at 4000rpm, but likes the choke there and then. Can be coached up to maybe 6-7K, but no more.
Tomorrow it will go back to as close to stock as possible (w/o the airbox), and then I'll work from there. May throw in the big jets again just for the hell of it if that doesn't work or seems to go in the wrong direction.
I see that DynoJet kits have a tapered needle w/ clip settings (the Sigma kit uses the stock needles w/ various spacers), and also a fitting for the air orifice on the right side of the carb (facint the intake side). The Sigma kit does not address this at all. I'm wondering whether this may have something to do w/ it falling flat..
I've also got some hotter plugs coming, since these look dark.
U
upb4dawn
Guest
Much improved.. but not quite there
Much improved.. but not quite there
OK, it's running much much better. I'd say I'm 85% there.
Rev's and pulls happily to about 8K now, and then acts like it's starving...& responds to choke to get up top. 1/8, 1/4, 1/2+ throttle response seems just fine - almost roll-on wheelie territory.
To get here, I've gone up one size on the pilot (45), & removed all spacers above the needle clips, and following the 6-Sigma Kit instructions put the nylon spacer and one steel washer below the clip (just ads spring pressure I know). There's no spacer above the clip, so this is effectively as high as I can raise the needle.
And, for jets I used the biggest ones they sent. #142.5 on the outside cylinders and #145 on the center two. The jets are marked AB and evidently they (6 Sigma) use the same sizing convention numbers as Keihin, so that translates to 122.5+ and 125 in Mikuni numbers according to the chart at Jetsrus. Seems a bit big, but not as big as the ones in a DynoJet Kit, from what I can tell. (I had tried this setup when I first got the kit, and it ran miserably, then I found I had cracked intake tubes, and they've been replaced).
The plugs look tan.
In addition to the 'starving' feeling at high rpms, it basically 'runs out of gas' unless I switch to 'prime' on the petcock (which is new). My floats are set correctly, and the vacuum hose is on correctly.
So, it wants more gas up top, and likes prime vs regular setting on the petcock. I don't mind that part so much except that it's dangerous to go off and leave it parked in prime... and it just ain't right.
In addition to going up yet one more size in jets, I'm wondering if I should set the floats differently to address that starving sensation.
Thoughts and comments?
Much improved.. but not quite there
OK, it's running much much better. I'd say I'm 85% there.
Rev's and pulls happily to about 8K now, and then acts like it's starving...& responds to choke to get up top. 1/8, 1/4, 1/2+ throttle response seems just fine - almost roll-on wheelie territory.
To get here, I've gone up one size on the pilot (45), & removed all spacers above the needle clips, and following the 6-Sigma Kit instructions put the nylon spacer and one steel washer below the clip (just ads spring pressure I know). There's no spacer above the clip, so this is effectively as high as I can raise the needle.
And, for jets I used the biggest ones they sent. #142.5 on the outside cylinders and #145 on the center two. The jets are marked AB and evidently they (6 Sigma) use the same sizing convention numbers as Keihin, so that translates to 122.5+ and 125 in Mikuni numbers according to the chart at Jetsrus. Seems a bit big, but not as big as the ones in a DynoJet Kit, from what I can tell. (I had tried this setup when I first got the kit, and it ran miserably, then I found I had cracked intake tubes, and they've been replaced).
The plugs look tan.
In addition to the 'starving' feeling at high rpms, it basically 'runs out of gas' unless I switch to 'prime' on the petcock (which is new). My floats are set correctly, and the vacuum hose is on correctly.
So, it wants more gas up top, and likes prime vs regular setting on the petcock. I don't mind that part so much except that it's dangerous to go off and leave it parked in prime... and it just ain't right.
In addition to going up yet one more size in jets, I'm wondering if I should set the floats differently to address that starving sensation.
Thoughts and comments?
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U
upb4dawn
Guest
Finally, bike's happy, I'm happy
Finally, bike's happy, I'm happy
Well, after much tinker, research, and more tinker, the bike's now running very well. Starts, idles, revs and pulls smoothly all the way to redline. No stumble, or flat spots, great roll on response at all levels.
Wow. This thing's a ball to ride.
Thanks for all the information, and more importantly for the encouragement to keep working on it.
First of all, my initial issues were mainly caused by crappy original intake tubes, which were brittle & cracked. I blamed the 6-Sigma jet kit. The intake tubes & o-rings were replaced and it really got me somewhere, but still lots of issues, and the indications seemed that it was running too rich . I went down in jet sizes from the 6-Sigma kit, and generally it got worse; & since it loved the choke when it balked, I then started working my way back up in jet sizes, finding improvement each time. I lost track of how many times I had the carbs off, and how many sets of jets I got, but I think I tried at least 4 or 5 different combinations. Along the way was lots of learning (I can pull the carbs off in 20 minutes now, change jets and re-install them in less than an hour total) and some sloppy or careless work on my behalf. Never underestimate the value of attention to detail at every step.
One issue I had, I blamed on carbs and it was the plugs. Now there's one step hotter plugs, and new NGK plug caps, which made a surprising difference.
The starving issue noted on my last post was, well ... low on gas. Duh. I made the mistake of trusting the very vague gas gauge, which showed a 1/4 tank & I'd just put a gallon in it. (I had never ridden this thing before I started working on it - it's my daughter's bike, she picked it up in neglected condition. I had originally started it on the stand, then commenced all this work, not really knowing what sort of baseline I was dealing with). So, dumbassness at play. "Genius has its limits, but ignorance knows no bounds".
Anyway, for the sake of conclusion, and for the "pods and exhaust" topic, here's the final score:
(SitStat: '82 gs650 gl, 17K miles, 140psi +/-compression; K & N dual pods, drilled out stock exhaust; & sea level riding for the most part)
Pilot jets are up one size (45). Mixture screw 2.5 turns out. Floats set, & rechecked (first time they were off, and it was just sloppy work on my end - a digital mike makes all the difference).
The needle now has no spacer above the clip, & a small nylon spacer + one thin steel washer (from 6-Sigma) below the clip. Vacuum slide hole drilled out w/ #40 drill bit. Vacuum slide springs clipped about 3/16ths inch. Main jets are Mikuni's (I doubted the quality of the AB jets supplied in the kit) 127.5 on the outer cylinders, and 130's on the center pair. I also closed/covered about 1/3 of the surface of the K & N dual pods.
Some of these things are a bit contrary to the advice I'd received, but I just kept trying different things following trial and error until it started showing improvement. All bikes are different, and riding conditions vary of course, too.
I kinda hate to turn this thing back over to my daughter now that it's done, it's so much fun to ride.
Finally, bike's happy, I'm happy
Well, after much tinker, research, and more tinker, the bike's now running very well. Starts, idles, revs and pulls smoothly all the way to redline. No stumble, or flat spots, great roll on response at all levels.
Wow. This thing's a ball to ride.
Thanks for all the information, and more importantly for the encouragement to keep working on it.
First of all, my initial issues were mainly caused by crappy original intake tubes, which were brittle & cracked. I blamed the 6-Sigma jet kit. The intake tubes & o-rings were replaced and it really got me somewhere, but still lots of issues, and the indications seemed that it was running too rich . I went down in jet sizes from the 6-Sigma kit, and generally it got worse; & since it loved the choke when it balked, I then started working my way back up in jet sizes, finding improvement each time. I lost track of how many times I had the carbs off, and how many sets of jets I got, but I think I tried at least 4 or 5 different combinations. Along the way was lots of learning (I can pull the carbs off in 20 minutes now, change jets and re-install them in less than an hour total) and some sloppy or careless work on my behalf. Never underestimate the value of attention to detail at every step.
One issue I had, I blamed on carbs and it was the plugs. Now there's one step hotter plugs, and new NGK plug caps, which made a surprising difference.
The starving issue noted on my last post was, well ... low on gas. Duh. I made the mistake of trusting the very vague gas gauge, which showed a 1/4 tank & I'd just put a gallon in it. (I had never ridden this thing before I started working on it - it's my daughter's bike, she picked it up in neglected condition. I had originally started it on the stand, then commenced all this work, not really knowing what sort of baseline I was dealing with). So, dumbassness at play. "Genius has its limits, but ignorance knows no bounds".
Anyway, for the sake of conclusion, and for the "pods and exhaust" topic, here's the final score:
(SitStat: '82 gs650 gl, 17K miles, 140psi +/-compression; K & N dual pods, drilled out stock exhaust; & sea level riding for the most part)
Pilot jets are up one size (45). Mixture screw 2.5 turns out. Floats set, & rechecked (first time they were off, and it was just sloppy work on my end - a digital mike makes all the difference).
The needle now has no spacer above the clip, & a small nylon spacer + one thin steel washer (from 6-Sigma) below the clip. Vacuum slide hole drilled out w/ #40 drill bit. Vacuum slide springs clipped about 3/16ths inch. Main jets are Mikuni's (I doubted the quality of the AB jets supplied in the kit) 127.5 on the outer cylinders, and 130's on the center pair. I also closed/covered about 1/3 of the surface of the K & N dual pods.
Some of these things are a bit contrary to the advice I'd received, but I just kept trying different things following trial and error until it started showing improvement. All bikes are different, and riding conditions vary of course, too.
I kinda hate to turn this thing back over to my daughter now that it's done, it's so much fun to ride.
B
boris.h
Guest
OK, looks good! So if I understand you covered a part of the k&n pods to be able to ride it well with 130 /127.5.. mini ones.. why do not you try to remove the covering tape and put bigger jets?
Nevertheless the size of the jets you use is geTring closer than my settings (and those of tkent02). I have velocity stacks, open exhaust, and have increased the air flow in the head by milling it. I still have to try but I put 152.5 mains...I think i will be close enough to ride it
Nevertheless the size of the jets you use is geTring closer than my settings (and those of tkent02). I have velocity stacks, open exhaust, and have increased the air flow in the head by milling it. I still have to try but I put 152.5 mains...I think i will be close enough to ride it
B
boris.h
Guest
Could you say more about the size of the holes that you drilled for the vaccum parts?
U
upb4dawn
Guest
"why do not you try to remove the covering tape and put bigger jets?"
Well, first of all, because tape is free (almost) & on hand, and jets are $25/set + shipping, (I have lots invested in the trial/error plan thus far) and second of all- it runs as good as I ever hoped it would, and third: I'm a bit tired of messing w/ it, and lastly, I wanted to cover the tops anyway to keep water out of the air cleaners in the event the bike was ever left outside in the rain (a distinct Oregon possibility). Using black tape it doesn't look cheesy either.
I also wonder if it affects the vacuum a bit... in a helpful way. Going from one size smaller jets to this arrangement was a remarkable improvement.
But, if absolute performance was the goal, with no worries about rain, more patience, and another set of jets, I'd certainly give that a try. I just decided to quit while I was ahead.
Well, first of all, because tape is free (almost) & on hand, and jets are $25/set + shipping, (I have lots invested in the trial/error plan thus far) and second of all- it runs as good as I ever hoped it would, and third: I'm a bit tired of messing w/ it, and lastly, I wanted to cover the tops anyway to keep water out of the air cleaners in the event the bike was ever left outside in the rain (a distinct Oregon possibility). Using black tape it doesn't look cheesy either.
I also wonder if it affects the vacuum a bit... in a helpful way. Going from one size smaller jets to this arrangement was a remarkable improvement.
But, if absolute performance was the goal, with no worries about rain, more patience, and another set of jets, I'd certainly give that a try. I just decided to quit while I was ahead.
U
upb4dawn
Guest
FYI- The bit came with the kit from 6-Sigma. I think DynoJet kits include a drill as well, not certain about the size. #40=0.098 in; 2.489mm.
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B
boris.h
Guest
OK thanks a lot for your answers. You also confirmed me that #40 is literally a size in inches so yes I can easily convert it into mm.
Could you explain what is the goal in drilling the vaccum holes and cutting the springs? Get richer in low rpm?
Could you explain what is the goal in drilling the vaccum holes and cutting the springs? Get richer in low rpm?
U
upb4dawn
Guest
This is from the instructions that came with the jet kit:
"The stock bike has lazy throttle response due to heavy slide springs that regulate the vacuum pistons (carburetor slides).
* By clipping the springs to the desired tension, the throttle response will become instantaneous and the delay on full throttle shifts will be eliminated. The result is a much more responsive engine.
* By enlarging or adding the slide's air displacement holes, you will be allowing them to lift and return quickly, to match the new spring tension, and provide the desired improved response."
"Start with one full loop (1/8th inch)"....{this pertains to clipping the springs, not drilling the hole, BTW.}
FYI- I got another set of springs off eBay for cheap (as a back-up/spare set) in case things went against the objective. The slides can be found as well... but even used ones aren't cheap. I took a chance, and worried I'd made a mistake until I got it running well.
I'm pretty sure the DynoJet kit also includes a drill for the slides. A difference seems to be that DynoJet includes a fitting for the air orifice on the right side of the carb that is evidently glued into place, reducing the size of the orifice. Nothing in the kit I used mentioned this at all. Perhaps there are member's who've used the DynoJet kit that can chime in here about that
I continue to be please with the performance of the bike in its current state of tune.
"The stock bike has lazy throttle response due to heavy slide springs that regulate the vacuum pistons (carburetor slides).
* By clipping the springs to the desired tension, the throttle response will become instantaneous and the delay on full throttle shifts will be eliminated. The result is a much more responsive engine.
* By enlarging or adding the slide's air displacement holes, you will be allowing them to lift and return quickly, to match the new spring tension, and provide the desired improved response."
"Start with one full loop (1/8th inch)"....{this pertains to clipping the springs, not drilling the hole, BTW.}
FYI- I got another set of springs off eBay for cheap (as a back-up/spare set) in case things went against the objective. The slides can be found as well... but even used ones aren't cheap. I took a chance, and worried I'd made a mistake until I got it running well.
I'm pretty sure the DynoJet kit also includes a drill for the slides. A difference seems to be that DynoJet includes a fitting for the air orifice on the right side of the carb that is evidently glued into place, reducing the size of the orifice. Nothing in the kit I used mentioned this at all. Perhaps there are member's who've used the DynoJet kit that can chime in here about that
I continue to be please with the performance of the bike in its current state of tune.
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