'82 GS450L - No spark left side HELP!

[incarceration]

Hello!

A bit of background:
I first came here about 2-3 weeks ago reporting that my bike had just flat out died while running it. Turned out I had to replace the stator, voltage regulator\rectifier, and also chose to replace the exhaust system as it was really rusty.

So I got all of that replaced, and managed to start it right up afterwards. Only problem was, it was running lean and wouldn't let me get above 40MPH when going to a gas station to fill the tires up.

So I went and took the carbs off completely and disassembled them, dipped everything, cleaned everything, ordered new jets (i had 2 #115s for main jets and 2 #45s for pilot jets. I put in 2 #130 main jets and #47.5 pilot jets. I put everything back together and back on the bike and went to start it and all it did was thu-dump-thu-dump-thu-dump over and over, trying to start. So I checked the spark plugs in each cylinder, there was fuel on the ends of the electrode, then I hung the plug next to the head and tried to crank it; the LEFT side did NOT spark, the RIGHT side DID. So I swapped the plugs, same result, nothing on the left, spark on the right.

What would cause it to now not run after it did run prior to me replacing the carb jets?

BTW, I took some voltage readings across the battery - ~11.6VDC with the key off and about ~10.8VDC with it on and cranking, going down at times to around ~9.7-~9.8VDC

PLEASE help as this is getting extremely frustrating and I've done so much work to this and now I feel like I'm regressing instead of progressing

 

[lemonshindig]

I'm not familiar with the 450. I don't even know if it's a 4 or a 2 cylinder.

But you must have two coils. Two coils and "maybe" points. I'm guessing that your '82 has electronic ignition. But with two coils, you'll have two "sides" of your ignition module.

Pull up the wiring diagram from bikecliff's website, get your multimeter out, and start diagnosing. Make sure you have at least 11v to both coil feeds. Make sure that each coil is grounded when it's supposed to be (just slowly turn the engine with a wrench. If it grounds and then opens, you're probably good there.)

Good luck
-Matt

 

[incarceration]

Yep, 2 cylinder, electric start.

That wiring diagram is what I've had printed out for the past 3 or 4 weeks or so haha.

The thing I don't understand is why is this happening now, when before it was running and starting right up on the first spark. It was just running lean because of the fuel\air mixture being way too low for the new exhaust system.

- Is the reported voltages high enough?

- How do I turn the engine slowly with a wrench? On the front sprocket?

- Where should I be checking the electrical ground for the coils because as far as the schematic the coils' ground is through the spark plug


thanks for the quick response

 

[Nessism]

Sounds like ignitor failure. Quite common the the 450. Dynatek sells a unit for the 450, not cheap though. Your battery voltage is low, but if the engine cranks with the starter it should make spark too.

Good luck

 

[incarceration]

You think the igniter is the issue even after it was running\starting fine ~3 weeks ago?

Is it possible to verify\test that theory with a multimeter or something?

 

[tom203]

A while back (longer than I can recall) you had to replace your stator and R/R- what brand did you use? and ,more importantly, did you test your charging system afterwards? At one time, you reported high voltages- bad news for electronic stuff like ignitors. Might run OK for a while ,then fryday arrives.

 

[incarceration]

Here's the stator I bought:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/121159326354

Here's the VR\R I bought (I believe it was an electrosport brand IIRC from the box):
http://www.ebay.com/itm/231019986429

Also, here's from another thread I had that was about the carbs running too lean after the exhaust replacement:

Check the connectors for the wires coming up from the right side of the motor (From the 'Points' cover on the right side) to the "ignitor" (the ignition box). Unplug..put some dielectric grease in/on the connectors and plug it in again. Also, the large connector going to the "ignitor" (ignition box) needs the same clean/ dielectric grease/ and replugging. I had the same thing on my 450T and it just went DEAD. Performed this and it runs great now. (Dielectric grease available at walmart, autoparts store. Get the small tube)

Do you think that's a more feasible scenario than the brand new charging system components? I understand that the new stuff could've gone bad, but while it was sitting there and had just been run and was running fine (aside from running lean?)

 

[Nessism]

Charging system problems don't effect spark, unless something is damaged or the battery is drained.

Maybe disconnect the ignitor and clean all the terminal connectors? Clean the connectors on the whole bike while you are at it. Deoxit is okay as long as you don't use too much. Pulling the terminals out of the plastic connectors to clean them is better still but more difficult. At any rate, I'd make sure the juice is going where it needs to and charge that battery. It should put out 13 volts without a load.

 

[incarceration]

At any rate, I'd make sure the juice is going where it needs to and charge that battery. It should put out 13 volts without a load.

I do believe the battery may be worth checking. The battery I have though is a gel cell battery so it shouldn't lose charge super quick. I'll have to take it to Advance Auto Parts and have them run a diag on it as I do not have anything that can charge a gel cell battery (requires super long periods of charging vs. standard lead-acid)

 

[incarceration]

Just got back from Advance Auto Parts - the battery was replaced under warranty.

I just finished putting the new battery in and it still does not spark on the left side.

What the heck can I do now?

 

[lemonshindig]

Ignition coils have two windings inside of each unit, primary and secondary.

The primary winding is grounded intermittently by the ignitor. The secondary winding is grounded through the plug.

The ignitor's job is to collapse the circuit in the primary coil when it's time to fire a spark. When the field in the primary coil collapses, it collapses down onto the secondary coil, which auto-magically amplifies the voltage a LOT. (Like 10,000 volts or more). That short high-voltage spark then travels through the path of least resistance, which happens to be across the air gap of your spark plug, and through the threads of the plug to ground.

The ignitor collapses the field in the primary winding by open-circuiting the ground. Imagine the cylinder moving up and down inside the engine. Most of that cycle, the primary winding is grounded via the ignitor. Once roughly 6 degrees "before top dead center" arrives, the ignitor open-circuits that primary ground path, the field collapses onto the secondary winding and auto-magically becomes 10,000 volts, it jumps the plug gap, and you get a spark.

You have two coils, but one ignitor. The ignitor module must have two different ground paths inside of it. One has failed, evidently.

So knowing how this thing works, you could, in theory, test it, by rotating the engine by hand and seeing if the ground wire between the ignitor and the left-side coil is grounded and then open suddenly and repeats that cycle. If not, replace the ignitor.

You can turn the engine by hand wherever that ignitor is mounted. On my 4-cylinder 1000, the ignitor is under the right side engine cover. There is a 19mm bolt there that you can put a wrench on to rotate the engine by hand. Put it in neutral first.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/ignition-system3.htm

Good luck
-Matt

 

[incarceration]

Ignition coils have two windings inside of each unit, primary and secondary.

The primary winding is grounded intermittently by the ignitor. The secondary winding is grounded through the plug.

The ignitor's job is to collapse the circuit in the primary coil when it's time to fire a spark. When the field in the primary coil collapses, it collapses down onto the secondary coil, which auto-magically amplifies the voltage a LOT. (Like 10,000 volts or more). That short high-voltage spark then travels through the path of least resistance, which happens to be across the air gap of your spark plug, and through the threads of the plug to ground.

The ignitor collapses the field in the primary winding by open-circuiting the ground. Imagine the cylinder moving up and down inside the engine. Most of that cycle, the primary winding is grounded via the ignitor. Once roughly 6 degrees "before top dead center" arrives, the ignitor open-circuits that primary ground path, the field collapses onto the secondary winding and auto-magically becomes 10,000 volts, it jumps the plug gap, and you get a spark.

You have two coils, but one ignitor. The ignitor module must have two different ground paths inside of it. One has failed, evidently.

So knowing how this thing works, you could, in theory, test it, by rotating the engine by hand and seeing if the ground wire between the ignitor and the left-side coil is grounded and then open suddenly and repeats that cycle. If not, replace the ignitor.

You can turn the engine by hand wherever that ignitor is mounted. On my 4-cylinder 1000, the ignitor is under the right side engine cover. There is a 19mm bolt there that you can put a wrench on to rotate the engine by hand. Put it in neutral first.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/ignition-system3.htm

Good luck
-Matt

Excellent bit of info. Although I believe the terminology is confused, and it's confusing me a bit.

I believe you are confusing the term igniter and signal generator?

My igniter is on the side, behind the left panel, next to the voltage regulator\rectifier, and it's the far right box labeled "TR Igniter", pictured here on my bike:
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/834/r7uv.jpg/

My signal generator\'point contacts'\'coil pickup'\'pickup points', is the thing on the right side of the engine case behind a round cover with the Suzuki logo on it, pictured here on my bike:
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/31/jp2u.jpg/

Is this in fact what you meant?

If not, I do not understand how I'm supposed to rotate anything within the igniter? It's a box, on the side of my motorcycle behind the side cover. Also, if this is the case, and you meant the signal generator\'point contacts'\'coil pickup'\'pickup points' on the right side of the engine case, where are you suggesting I measure with the multimeter for it "grounding and then opening suddenly"?

Thanks!

 

[lemonshindig]

Beats me.

I was talking about your signal generator. Those little black devices under the side cover are what control when the ignition coil fires.

I don't know what that ignition box does. My guess is that it's some sort of electronic advance...?

Unplug the ground (signal) wires that go to your coils. On my bike, the +12v wires are orange/green, and the ground (signal) wires are white and black, respectively. Those wires should be grounded most of the time, and then open circuited for just a moment in the engine cycle.

 

[incarceration]

Alright cool, thanks!

I'll check that out

 

[incarceration]

Alright I just checked that.

The circuit is open (shows infinity) until I rotate it past the respective 'point', then it shows a quick reading on the ohms and goes back to infinity (for both). So this means my signal generator is working properly, and that it's my left coil that is defective, right?

 

[Nessism]

Alright I just checked that.

The circuit is open (shows infinity) until I rotate it past the respective 'point', then it shows a quick reading on the ohms and goes back to infinity (for both). So this means my signal generator is working properly, and that it's my left coil that is defective, right?

That just shows the magnet is working. Signal generators are basically just magnets and rarely fail. The trigger tells the ignitor to fire. If you are not getting spark it's most likely the ignitor or coil. You can switch coils side for side and see if the problem follows. As mentioned before, the 450 ignitors are prone to failure so keep that in mind as you progress though the diagnosis.

 

[incarceration]

Ok I just swapped the wires going to each coil; the left still did not spark and the right did still. This is indicative of a bad left coil, correct?

 

[Nessism]

Ok I just swapped the wires going to each coil; the left still did not spark and the right did still. This is indicative of a bad left coil, correct?

You switched wires going to the coils, thus assuring the left side had a good coil because it sparked previously, yet no spark? If so, that indicates the ignitor is bad.

If you switched coils right for left, and the problem switched sides, that indicates a bad coil and/or wire/cap.

 

[incarceration]

No before I did any diagnosis, the LEFT side was NOT sparking, but the RIGHT, WAS.

I swapped the 2 wires going to the LEFT coil, with the 2 wires on the RIGHT and the same issue was there, no change. Meaning, to me, the good wires that were on the right that WAS sparking, is on the LEFT, that WASN'T and it still WASN'T.

To me, that indicates the LEFT coil is bad, correct?

EDIT:
I found this on eBay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/321158054731?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2648

and was wondering if that'll be compatible with mine? Mine says 3210TR 21 and that one says 3210TR 61, what's the difference?

 

[lemonshindig]

No before I did any diagnosis, the LEFT side was NOT sparking, but the RIGHT, WAS.

I swapped the 2 wires going to the LEFT coil, with the 2 wires on the RIGHT and the same issue was there, no change. Meaning, to me, the good wires that were on the right that WAS sparking, is on the LEFT, that WASN'T and it still WASN'T.

To me, that indicates the LEFT coil is bad, correct?

That seems like sound logic. It would definitely point towards a bad coil, now wouldn't it?

There are some basic coil tests you can do with your multimeter. Use the ohm meter function, and measure the resistance across the primary winding (small wires), and then again from primary winding to secondary (a small wire to a spark plug wire). Compare these numbers to the other coil. And then check for ground. If both small wires are disconnected, and both spark plug wires are disconnected, there should be no continuity to ground from the coil.