• Required reading for all forum users!!!

    Welcome!
    Register to access the full functionality of the GSResources forum. Until you register and activate your account you will not have full forum access, nor will you be able to post or reply to messages.

    A note to new registrants...
    All new forum registrations must be activated via email before you have full access to the forum.

    A Special Note about Email accounts!
    DO NOT SIGN UP USING hotmail, outlook, gmx, sbcglobal, att, bellsouth or email.com. They delete our forum signup emails.

    A note to old forum members...
    I receive numerous requests from people who can no longer log in because their accounts were deleted. As mentioned in the forum FAQ, user accounts are deleted if you haven't logged in for the past 6 months. If you can't log in, then create a new forum account. If you don't get an error message, then check your email account for an activation message. If you get a message stating that the email address is already in use, then your account still exists so follow the instructions in the forum FAQ for resetting your password.

    Have you forgotten your password or have a new email address? Then read the forum FAQ for details on how to reset it.

    Any email requests for "can't log in anymore" problems or "lost my password" problems will be deleted. Read the forum FAQ and follow the instructions there - that's what we have one for...

  • Returning Visitors

    If you are a returning visitor who never received your confirmation email, then odds are your email provider is blockinig emails from our server. The only thing that can be done to get around this is you will have to try creating another forum account using an email address from another domain.

    If you are a returning visitor to the forum and can't log in using your old forum name and password but used to be able to then chances are your account is deleted. Purges of the databases are done regularly. You will have to create a new forum account and you should be all set.

83gs550e New Starter Engaging While Eng Running

  • Thread starter Thread starter GQROD
  • Start date Start date
G

GQROD

Guest
I installed a new starter OEM.

Old starter was engaging while i was riding and finally died.

Replaced with new oem one and same thing happened-while riding starter engaged, felt like dropping to a lower gear.

Heard rumbling/schreeching noise

Now starter won't engage

Relay clicks

Seems to show 005 resistance don't know if i'm reading my meter correctly. Stock is 3-4 ohms resistance on the relay.

Could i have wired the main red and black wires incorrectly? or is the relay shot thus engaging the starter?

Your advice is greatly appreciated.
 
That would be more of a starter clutch problem than a problem with the starter itself.
I hope you didn't fry the new starter. :(
 
I installed a new starter clutch along with the new rotor.

What exactly would cause the starter clutch to engage while the engine is running?

I think the new starter is fried also i talked to the place i got it and hopefully i can exchange it for another with only a re-stocking fee.
 
GQROD said:
I installed a new starter clutch along with the new rotor.

What exactly would cause the starter clutch to engage while the engine is running?

I think the new starter is fried also i talked to the place i got it and hopefully i can exchange it for another with only a re-stocking fee.
Click to expand...
gotta be a wiring problem with the starter circuit somewhere. start by checking the start button itself then work back through the wiring. could be a loose connection or a dodgy earth somewhere
 
Spend $15 go to HomeDepot and get a soloniod for a tractor & replace yours. Also from the sound you will need another starter. Don't forget to clean the starter button.
It may also be necessary to remove the starter clutch for inspection
 
Last edited:
Excellent advice

When old starter died i did indeed put a new solenoid from Lowes and the solenoid got fried as well and stuck in the closed position it would not click. So i did not want to fry my last cheap solenoid. After of course running the bike WITHOUT the starter idler gear in place to see if it was the starter clutch and the bike ran great no problems there.

The starter is fried. Tried jumping it and no dice.

The solenoid does click and shows normal voltage on both sides of the main power cables.

Trigger circuit shows normal voltage when initiated and .01-.05 when off.

I did a continuity test to see if the yellow/green wire had a short or was grounding and it did not have continuity so it was not shorted.

I disconnected the ground wire cable on the solenoid, bump started the bike and took it out to see if the starter clutch would show a problem it did not, it ran great.

Dodgy earth makes sense! I'll check the yellow/green wire as well as the main cables for this. Continuity tests on all cables showed no shorts.

I had cleaned the switch early on during all the work i will clean it again to make sure.

When i tested the solenoid it showed .05 volt when it should have shown NO voltage on the trigger side.It may be this little amount of current is triggering the starter.

I think however improbable it may be the solenoid is bad and engaging when the engine is running.

Could a bad nuetral safety switch be causing this? Or should i just replace the solenoid?

And thank you all for your advice i have never run into this problem in all the years i worked on cars so this is frustratingly new to me.
 
Last edited:
o.05 volt wont be enough to even tickle the solenoid into action. it nust be a problem in the wiring before it reaches the solenoid
 
I noticed i had attached the main cables on wrong.

According to the manual the cable to the battery should be on the right and the cable to the starter motor should have been on the left side of the factory soloenoid.

Would this have caused the starter motor to come on while the engine was running? ( reverse polarity? )
 
GQROD said:
I noticed i had attached the main cables on wrong.

According to the manual the cable to the battery should be on the right and the cable to the starter motor should have been on the left side of the factory soloenoid.

Would this have caused the starter motor to come on while the engine was running? ( reverse polarity? )
Click to expand...
That wouldn't make a difference.
Are the bearings and spacers on the new starter clutch on in the right sequence?
Is the starter clutch brand new.
 
chef1366 said:
That wouldn't make a difference.
Are the bearings and spacers on the new starter clutch on in the right sequence?
Is the starter clutch brand new.
Click to expand...

Yes the starter clutch is new oem.

There were no spacers on the old or new starter. Just the o-ring.

I'm wondering if the starter interlock switch may be intermitently triggering the solenoid?

From what i understand the swicth on the clutch lever is supposed to prevent one from starting the engine if it is not pulled in correct?

I can hear the solenoid clicking even though i am not pulling in the clutch lever.

From what i see on the wiring diagram the yellow/green goes from the right handle bar switch go to the clutch lever switch ( interlock switch ), then to the solenoid as the trigger.

Could it be that this switch is staying closed long enough to send current to trigger the solenoid while the engine is running?

I'm going to take it apart and clean it. But i'd like your opinions on this please.
 
Last edited:
The clutch interlock switch just breaks the starter button wire. The only way you could get the starter solenoid to go without pushing the starter button would be if there is a meltdown sharing a live wire in the harness.

With the starter clutch spinning around the crank faster than the actual starter can turn would it activate the clutch and spin the starter at the speed of the motor?
I could be wrong but I still think it's the starter clutch.
 
chef1366 said:
The clutch interlock switch just breaks the starter button wire. The only way you could get the starter solenoid to go without pushing the starter button would be if there is a meltdown sharing a live wire in the harness.

With the starter clutch spinning around the crank faster than the actual starter can turn would it activate the clutch and spin the starter at the speed of the motor?
I could be wrong but I still think it's the starter clutch.
Click to expand...

Makes sense which is why i replaced the old starter clutch with a new one. ( sharing a meltdown makes even more sense that is what i thought, have to start tracing the wires )

The old one was not bad i replaced it so i would not have these problems and have to take the rotor off again.

How would a new starter clutch fail? i ask because this is the first one i have installed. It seemed straightforward.
 
Update

I pulled the stator cover off to check the starter clutch.

Starter clutch seems fine.

No metal shards, no broken pieces.

Turns to the right cleanly.

Does not move to the left, which is what it's supposed to do.

Starter can be rotated by hand but does not crank so it's shot.

I traced the yellow/green wire through out the entire harness and found no melted insulation or wires near it that could accidently provide trigger voltage to engage the starter while running. ( very odd )

The only thing i can think of is that the solenoid is engaging due to vibration.

Perhaps the pivot spring is so weak that it triggers itself.

Weird i know but i'm out of logical explanations.

When i was tuning the bike and test riding it after the carb rebuild i had a cheap Lowes mower solenoid that worked great. Before i put in the new rotor.

After the new rotor and stator i decided to put in the original starter relay to save space.

This is when the problems happened, the old starter never gave me any problems with the tractor relay.

So i will try to get a new starter and clean all the contacts and switches and start with a new relay. Thanks for all the advice.
 
forums.off-road.com/jeep-short-wheelbase/62352-starter-wont-stop-running.html - 85k -
http://forums.off-road.com/jeep-short-wheelbase/62352-starter-wont-stop-running.html - 85k - - 85k -


Thought this link would come in handy to explain the problem i have with the starter engaging while the engine is running.

It's an off road forum but it touches on what can happen.

I have cleaned the starter interlock switch, it was dirty and the square piece was marred well enough to stay stuck in the on position. I'll have to replace it.

However i believe the solenoid is the culprit. The above forum explains in detail how carbon build up can keep the contact closed even if intermitantly.

To be on the safe side i will be installing a high amp switch before the new relay so that no current leaks to the new relay to trip the contact after the engine is running. Two starters going bad is enough for me not to take chances.
 
Last edited:
" With the starter clutch spinning around the crank faster than the actual starter can turn would it activate the clutch and spin the starter at the speed of the motor?
I could be wrong but I still think it's the starter clutch. "-posted by chef1366 ( thanks again for the help i appreciate it-ROD)

According to another site a "freewheel" clutch is used on motorcycles and farm tractors specificly to prevent the starter from being turned too fast by the engine ( on a Bendix system the engine would be turning the starter at 15,000 to 20,000 rpms) if it were to be engaged while the engine is running.

Granted this makes sense!!- that the starter clutch could cause the starter to spin, however in a freewheel clutch the starter would be spun at it's original rpm,

but it does not explain why it is burned out? or the battery boiling? and the cables being heated to the point where the insulation melted slightly.

The jeep forum touches on something important that has not been considered-"feedback" as the cause of the relay being triggered while the engine is running. ( visit site it's good reading )

So my only conclusion is the relay ( which has not been replaced since i got the bike ) is bad, but does not test as bad. Electrical tests all show it working as intended.

However mechanical failure can cause this and lead to the motor burning up by pulling too many amps unrestricted.

Hope these long winded expalanations can help those who may run across this problem or hopefully prevent it.

Thanks again everyone for your help.
 
Last edited:
Thanks chef I just replaced it with a unit from Duaneage but i'll check it. Voltage showed normal so i didn't suspect it.

The boiling happened when the starters died, i thought it was due to the starters pulling too many amps for too long, didn't dawn on me to check the r/r.
 
Last edited:
update

update

Took out the starter, shook it, and heard pieces inside loose. Could be the brushes. I turned the starter by hand and it froze momentarily-likely the loose parts jamming.

Sent it off for a replacement.

Ordered the starter interlock switch the plastic piece was too far gone.

I will be replacing the starter relay, i believe this is the culprit, i'll also add a high amp switch to be on the safe side. Not necessary with a new relay but you just never know.

Wired the sense wire from the honda r/r to the rear brake light on the Brown wire ( this is the color for this model the 1983 gs550e ) to see if the readings are higher.

Tested the r/r using the stator papers guide but i may need a better meter cause i saw no decimal point to indicate 1.0 volt or .50 volts on the diode portion of the test. Just a 1 and on another reading it read 536/ don't know what that is.

Don't think the r/r is bad though since the output has been steady and consistent.

Could not finish testing it until the engine is running again, don't want to put the cover back on to push start it.

The boiling battery i feel came from the starter pulling too many amps for too long because at the same time i noticed the battery boiling i saw the melted insulation on the cables from the starter relay and they felt hot. I figure if it's the r/r boiling the battery then it would happen all the time which it doesn't.

Great points brought up by all which allowed me to hone in on the problem.

I'll update once the new starter and relay are in.

Thanks again everyone for your advice i do appreciate it.
 
Last edited:
Update 11/13/08 Starter

Update 11/13/08 Starter

Got the new starter back, installed it, bike started great idles fine and ran very strong.

Rode for 2 miles without a problem. Still have to ride it farther to make sure.

However i am hearing a light clicking noise from the left side that gets louder as i rev it higher to about 5000 rpm. Don't know what this is.

The rotor is on tight and the starter clutch is new, so i don't know what this noise is unless it's valves? it made this same noise when i first i got it.

However before taking starter out this time it was not making this noise. Any ideas anyone?????

I still have to install a high amp battery cut-out switch between the battery and the starter solenoid to avoid accidental engagement of the relay while the engine is running. ( don't wan't to blow another starter! )

R/R is putting out slightly higher voltage now more consistent through out the harness at over 12.5 volts.

Seems putting sense wire on brake light does give you higher voltage at coils than putting sense wire on battery. Bike pulls harder now. Without over charging.

Replaced the oil hoses coming from the cylinder heads to the case, the old ones were SHOT!! and leaked everwhere.

So a big thank you to everyone who has helped through out the last few months with your advice i would not have been able to get this far without you and this great site.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top