Battery High terminal short to frame

[badeaslava]

Hello everyone,

I've recently bought a gs650e, it was a non-running bike, although the previous owner did say it was running fine, when the start button was pressed nothing moved. I bought it anyways, which now i somewhat regret actually.

At any rate, i started looking into the electrical system. When you turn on the ignition everything comes on, the spedo lighting, the neutral indicator light and the oil red light, but the starting solenoid didn't actuate at all. After some investigation with the voltmeter i found out that the base of the solenoid (which is supposed to be grounded to the frame) reads a high voltage, just a few below the battery voltage. Now, given that the battery is long dead and reads 7.2V now, the ground at the solenoid reads 6.8V. I clearly have a high to frame short but i can't figure out where. The negative of the battery does screw to the top of the tranny and the area nearby there reads 0V, like it should but the air filter box reads the 6.8V. I've checked connections close to the fuse box and in the headlamp and none of them seem to be burned or tampered with. The bike has been sitting for a year though without being started, i don't know what that could have done with the electrical system.

My questions before i start digging into the wiring system once more with the voltmeter, is there a common problem on these bikes such that if any one component fails it would short the high of the battery to the frame. maybe if the R/R fails, seems to be a common problem on these models, can it ever cause such a short? Or maybe the ignitor which is at the bottom of the air filter box?

Any help and advice will be highly appreciated...i think i'm loosing hope of ever hearing this bike rumble... thanks

 

[Agemax]

unbolt the starter solenoid from the frame and hold it away from the frame. test if you still have 6.8v on the air filter box. also put the + meter probe on the solenoid body and the - on the air filter and see if you have 6.8v there.if so then the solenoid is shorting to ground.

 

[terrylee]

Are you sure the solenoid is grounded? Although they are suppose to ground to frame, sometimes it's good to run a ground wire from one of the bolts that hold it in place, and then ground it battery neg. or to frame where you know there is a good clean(no paint) place. Just a thought. terrylee

 

[tom203]

IF you plan to use a vehicle battery (i.e. jump it)to run some tests, make sure the vehicle ain't running! Be very skeptical of PO's comments . Do you understand on/off switch ? also this bike might still have a clutch safety switch-no solenoid clicking till clutch is pulled in.

Head to this link for readable wiring diagram- it might not be exact model but it's close....

https://sites.google.com/a/dslextreme.com/cbsaunders/images/1981GS650EX.Jpg?attredirects=0

 

[posplayr]

Hello everyone,

I've recently bought a gs650e, it was a non-running bike, although the previous owner did say it was running fine, when the start button was pressed nothing moved. I bought it anyways, which now i somewhat regret actually.

At any rate, i started looking into the electrical system. When you turn on the ignition everything comes on, the spedo lighting, the neutral indicator light and the oil red light, but the starting solenoid didn't actuate at all. After some investigation with the voltmeter i found out that the base of the solenoid (which is supposed to be grounded to the frame) reads a high voltage, just a few below the battery voltage. Now, given that the battery is long dead and reads 7.2V now, the ground at the solenoid reads 6.8V. I clearly have a high to frame short but i can't figure out where. The negative of the battery does screw to the top of the tranny and the area nearby there reads 0V, like it should but the air filter box reads the 6.8V. I've checked connections close to the fuse box and in the headlamp and none of them seem to be burned or tampered with. The bike has been sitting for a year though without being started, i don't know what that could have done with the electrical system.

My questions before i start digging into the wiring system once more with the voltmeter, is there a common problem on these bikes such that if any one component fails it would short the high of the battery to the frame. maybe if the R/R fails, seems to be a common problem on these models, can it ever cause such a short? Or maybe the ignitor which is at the bottom of the air filter box?

Any help and advice will be highly appreciated...i think i'm loosing hope of ever hearing this bike rumble... thanks

R/R's are a common problem and battery shorts to R/R ground are on the list of failure modes. Disconnect the R/R from the battery and see if the short persists. DO NOT RUN THE BIKE THAT WAY OR YOU COUPLE dispatch the last bit of life from the stator R/R.

 

[badeaslava]

Thank you all for your suggestions and ideas to try!

The bike does have a clutch breaker switch but i shorted those wires together so it should be fine. I'll definitely try disconnecting the R/R and seeing if that changes anything, as well as having a wire from the ground of the battery to the base of the solenoid. I did disconnect the solenoid and tried it by itself and it definitely functions as as intended so I'm guessing the problem is elsewhere. i'll post an update hopefully in the next few days...or return for more advice

thanks again to everyone!

 

[badeaslava]

R/R is ok but still no start

R/R is ok but still no start

So i did like you suggested and disconnected the R/R from the wiring harness to see whether that got rid of my short of high to frame, and it didn't really affect anything. Then i started disconnecting wire terminals to see what does affect the frame ground (I'm measuring the frame ground at the screw that mounts the starting solenoid to the frame). It seems that disconnecting the ignitor does the trick and the frame ground reads close to 0V. So maybe it's a faulty ignitor?? does anyone have an experience with that??

Also what's weird is, there are 2 wires (both black/white) that emerge from the harness and bolt onto the solenoid ground with a screw, and I measure them both and they were at the battery high again. This means that once connected to the solenoid ground (which is their normal configuration) they'll pull this connection high again?! do you think i have to trace that black/white wires through the harness to where they emerge more? i've looked at multiple wiring diagrams and none of them mention the 2 black/white wires that bolt to the frame ground at the solenoid.

Sorry for the long post i'm just perplexed...

 

[posplayr]

So i did like you suggested and disconnected the R/R from the wiring harness to see whether that got rid of my short of high to frame, and it didn't really affect anything. Then i started disconnecting wire terminals to see what does affect the frame ground (I'm measuring the frame ground at the screw that mounts the starting solenoid to the frame). It seems that disconnecting the ignitor does the trick and the frame ground reads close to 0V. So maybe it's a faulty ignitor?? does anyone have an experience with that??

Also what's weird is, there are 2 wires (both black/white) that emerge from the harness and bolt onto the solenoid ground with a screw, and I measure them both and they were at the battery high again. This means that once connected to the solenoid ground (which is their normal configuration) they'll pull this connection high again?! do you think i have to trace that black/white wires through the harness to where they emerge more? i've looked at multiple wiring diagrams and none of them mention the 2 black/white wires that bolt to the frame ground at the solenoid.

Sorry for the long post i'm just perplexed...

Not sure how you missed B/W is the primary harness ground
There are typically two ring lugs ended wires connected to the B/W; one to the battery box and one to the solenoid mount.

 

[tom203]

My solenoid is mounted on right side of battery box- no sign of ground wire, just relies on mounting bolts and a non rusted battery box (so far mine works fine ). At bottom of battery box there was a ring terminal stud with black/white wire attached that ran and attached to the plate that holds the ignitor and R/R ( this supposedly let R/R "see" battery negative). I dumped this and opted for a common grounding point approach. Maybe on later 650's suzuki realized they had a problem and so they added those two black/white ground wires that you have- I don't have them on mine . I did have a black/white ring terminal wire running from original R/R to ignitor plate.
Make sure the wires running from ignitor to its connector aren't chafed somewhere- the orange/white wire is 12 volts positive from on/off switch.

 

[Redman]

I will say about same thing as others have said ......

Solenoid is mounted to battery box, right? not directly to frame, (on 650G and 850G and 1100G that I am more familiar with the solenoid is mounted to battery box).

If your solenoid is mounted directly on the frame, you can tell me to shut up, and Steve can tell me I am wrong.

Yes, solenoid get its ground from its mounting bolt, solenoid doesnt not have its own ground wire.
And, if it is like the GSes I am familiar with, the solenoid is bolted to battery box. And sometimes the battery box is not well mounted to the frame.
Hense, Therfore, why there should be a black/white ground wire from bike harness that is connected to somewhere on the battery box (usally ring terminal on solenoid mouning bolt) ... but sometimes even that wire is not a good ground for a couple reasons (one of which is the R/R has failed and burnt up that wire so it doesn't exisit any more... but that is an entire other problem).

So, you can add you own additional ground wire from the solenoid mounting bolt to battery negative.

When you say your "ground is high", I think what you are observing is that your solenoid is not grounded.

Or another way to describe it: what you are calling your ground (the solenoid mounting) is not really your ground. The ground needs to be brought to your solenoid mounting.

.

 

[Redman]

...........
Also what's weird is, there are 2 wires (both black/white) that emerge from the harness and bolt onto the solenoid ground with a screw, and I measure them both and they were at the battery high again. This means that once connected to the solenoid ground (which is their normal configuration) they'll pull this connection high again?! do you think i have to trace that black/white wires through the harness to where they emerge more? i've looked at multiple wiring diagrams and none of them mention the 2 black/white wires that bolt to the frame ground at the solenoid.

Sorry for the long post i'm just perplexed...

This is the wire I am refereeing to.
A black/white wire from wiring harness that should connect to solenoid mounting bolt to Ground the solenoid (and battery box and R/R). And obvilusly your solenoid is not grounded. So apparently that "ground" wire is not really grounded.

But you say two of these... hum...
Is one from the R/R..?
and other from wiring harness..?

Schematic I have seen does show black/white wires going to various devices and to two ring terminals.
One ring terminal going to ground symbol with I take to mean the frame (on my bike that is up on top of frame, behind battery, can see it when take off the seat).
And shows another ring terminal inside a dashed box that includes the R/R and the solenoid. I take that to mean the battery box.

And the schematic shows a ring terminal on a wire from the R/R.
So a total of 3 ring terminals
One for frame ground.
One for grounding battery box, and one from R/R that I say should be at same point as the one grounding the battery box.

So... again.
Apparently that black/white wire that should be grounding things AINT.
So, add your own ground wire to battery box from frame somewhere (or battery negative).
and/or
See if you can find that frame ground that apparent AINT grounded.

Dave


Tell us more what you find.


and... put you location in user profile (goto UserCP)
and... put bike model & year in signature line.
Then those show up in every post. Makes it easier for folks to help out, and maybe some friendly helpful member is nearby.

Dave

.

 

[posplayr]

I will say about same thing as others have said ......

Solenoid is mounted to battery box, right? not directly to frame, (on 650G and 850G and 1100G that I am more familiar with the solenoid is mounted to battery box).

If your solenoid is mounted directly on the frame, you can tell me to shut up, and Steve can tell me I am wrong.

Yes, solenoid get its ground from its mounting bolt, solenoid doesnt not have its own ground wire.
And, if it is like the GSes I am familiar with, the solenoid is bolted to battery box. And sometimes the battery box is not well mounted to the frame.
Hense, Therfore, why there should be a black/white ground wire from bike harness that is connected to somewhere on the battery box (usally ring terminal on solenoid mouning bolt) ... but sometimes even that wire is not a good ground for a couple reasons (one of which is the R/R has failed and burnt up that wire so it doesn't exisit any more... but that is an entire other problem).

So, you can add you own additional ground wire from the solenoid mounting bolt to battery negative.

When you say your "ground is high", I think what you are observing is that your solenoid is not grounded.

Or another way to describe it: what you are calling your ground (the solenoid mounting) is not really your ground. The ground needs to be brought to your solenoid mounting.

.

Suzuki certainly did not have the brightest electrical engineers working on their bikes and they also have different groups working on each bike as evidenced by the great variation of schematics. However, I have come to accept most of the 16V bikes as having similar ground wiring (and yet they are different to the 8V bikes).

See the picture attached to the bottom of the link below. It shows two ground wires and where they mount. The one ring lug on the solenoid is B/W coming from the harness the other B/W harness ring lug goes to the front bolt on the battery box (not show but you can find it in the manual). The R/R ground also going to the solenoid is a B/W but not attached to the harness in any way.


http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=152769&highlight=charging+system+health

 

[Killer2600]

Suzuki certainly did not have the brightest electrical engineers

You insult the fine japanese engineers based on the fact that a 30+ year old rarely ridden bike that if lucky has averaged 1,000 miles a year doesn't perform like new? I'd love for you to invent something that'll endure 30+ years of rare to non-use and even if left to rot will perform like new with no repair or maintenance 30 years down the road.

 

[posplayr]

You insult the fine japanese engineers based on the fact that a 30+ year old rarely ridden bike that if lucky has averaged 1,000 miles a year doesn't perform like new?

No Killer, I have no idea where you got that from?

First off it certainly does not take 30+ years for an OEM GS to develop enough corrosion in the electrical connections to cause R/R problems. Your stipulation that it is only degradation after 30+ years is a fallacious overstatement.

I insult the electrical engineers (for which there were probably very few if any) because of the great variety of GS harness designs each making slight variations on power and grounding between R/R battery ignition switch and fuse box( seemingly indicating a variety of designers) but yet persistently creating poor and troublesome choices on the power and ground configurations. This is especially true of the grounds.

The fact that the simplest of modification (to run a ground wire from the battery(-) to the R/R(-) ) has been demonstrated here at GSR to be a big part of improving charging but yet was lacking in all of the original designs makes it clear that the design authority for harness after harness design, and year after year was oblivious to the true working of the R/R.

Do you think that there is a motive of planned obsolescence?

I do not slight Suzuki for using Shunt R/R's as that would have seemed to have been the only prevalent R/R available, but I don't think that provides an excuse for not knowing how it works. However, Suzuki engineers are not standouts for their lack of electrical design expertise. There are plenty of examples of much more recent makes of bikes that have been produced with improperly designed charging systems!! Chronic failures of either stators or R/R's are common and to my mind is symptomatic of an industry as a whole that has traditionally not understood how charging systems work.

I'm sorry if you think this is derogatory towards anybody in particular. I am only relating my opinion based on the clearly documented short comings of a broad array of of motorcycle electrical systems.

 

[Big T]

You insult the fine japanese engineers based on the fact that a 30+ year old rarely ridden bike that if lucky has averaged 1,000 miles a year doesn't perform like new? I'd love for you to invent something that'll endure 30+ years of rare to non-use and even if left to rot will perform like new with no repair or maintenance 30 years down the road.

Nope, he speaks from experience

It only took 18 months (early 79 to late 80) for my stator and R/R to blow

The replacement's still humming along

 

[Killer2600]

All your observations are in hind-sight and hind-sight is 20/20, if an engineer (human) was able to determine and account for all possible failure modes of a device/system still in the conception phase then A) development costs would be crazy and B) repair shops would largely go out of business because cars and bikes would never break, EVER.

As for stator or R/R failure in 18 months, is that the fault of the maker of the bike or the supplier that made the R/R and stator? Likewise, the cracked dash issue in the late-90's to early '00's dodge rams, is that a fault of the designer of the truck or the supplier that made the dash?

I tell this to anyone that thinks they can do it better, don't tell me you can do it better please just go to the source and have them let you do it better or if the source is local just go do it better and then I will decide if you have indeed done it better. Outside of that it's all talk and talk is cheap and gets nothing done - I'm a not a politician so I don't believe talking alone accomplishes goals or is worthy of a paycheck.

 

[posplayr]

All your observations are in hind-sight and hind-sight is 20/20, if an engineer (human) was able to determine and account for all possible failure modes of a device/system still in the conception phase then A) development costs would be crazy and B) repair shops would largely go out of business because cars and bikes would never break, EVER.

As for stator or R/R failure in 18 months, is that the fault of the maker of the bike or the supplier that made the R/R and stator? Likewise, the cracked dash issue in the late-90's to early '00's dodge rams, is that a fault of the designer of the truck or the supplier that made the dash?

I tell this to anyone that thinks they can do it better, don't tell me you can do it better please just go to the source and have them let you do it better or if the source is local just go do it better and then I will decide if you have indeed done it better. Outside of that it's all talk and talk is cheap and gets nothing done - I'm a not a politician so I don't believe talking alone accomplishes goals or is worthy of a paycheck.

I see planned obsolescence.

 

[Killer2600]

I see planned obsolescence.

Everything Rusts, Corrodes, or Decays. No matter how well you engineer something, you can't beat mother nature. She always wins in the end.

 

[badeaslava]

Thanks again for all your helpful comments and suggestions. I've managed to get the power issue sorted out by connecting the ground lug of the solenoid directly to the battery negative. Now i get power when i turn the key, i get lights and everything working fine. I need now to charge the battery back to 12V and try to start it. There's one small (or maybe big problem) when I connect the ignitor into the electrical system I get a large current draw, such that all my lights, indicators dim significantly. Is this normal when the motor is not running? the ignitor shouldn't be doing anything when the motor is off, maybe there's a short.

meanwhile I'll try to get the battery charged somewhere and try my luck starting it... wish me luck...

 

[Steve]

I've managed to get the power issue sorted out by connecting the ground lug of the solenoid directly to the battery negative.

I was not aware that there is a "grounding lug" on the solenoid. :-k

The whole solenoid case needs to be grounded, but that only affects your ability to push the button to start the engine, nothing else.

There's one small (or maybe big problem) when I connect the ignitor into the electrical system I get a large current draw, such that all my lights, indicators dim significantly. Is this normal when the motor is not running?

It's not the ignitor that is drawing the system down, it's the coils. Each one draws about 4 amps, so you have an 8 amp draw if the key is on and the engine is not running.

Actually, it's more than that, because the headlight is drawing another 5 amps or so, as well as the tail light and the instrument lights. The total draw will be closer to 12-13 amps when the key is on.

the ignitor shouldn't be doing anything when the motor is off, maybe there's a short.

The ignitor might draw just a little bit, but as pointed out above, it's not the ignitor that's drawing the system down.

.