Camshaft Top End Rattle

[49er]

Your tacho driven gear is mounted in the cam cover so it will rely on the correct thickness gasket for the gears to mess accurately.

 

[Suzuki_Don]

Your tacho driven gear is mounted in the cam cover so it will rely on the correct thickness gasket for the gears to mess accurately.

Yes, that's right Ian. That's why I asked the question. Does the noise sound like that to you. What are your thoughts.

I might try putting an extra gasket in there or maybe just remove the tach drive and see if the noise disappears.

 

[49er]

Don, your sound clip seemed to indicate that the noise was coming from the front of the cam cover, in the exhaust cam region.

You can try removing the driven gear, to see if it makes any difference.

I had a look at the contact pattern on my spare 850 gear. It's a little narrower in width that what yours shows. That means that yours had a tighter clearance than mine, which could be the cause of your noise. I's worth investigating.

 

[Suzuki_Don]

Don, your sound clip seemed to indicate that the noise was coming from the front of the cam cover, in the exhaust cam region.

You can try removing the driven gear, to see if it makes any difference.

I had a look at the contact pattern on my spare 850 gear. It's a little narrower in width that what yours shows. That means that yours had a tighter clearance than mine, which could be the cause of your noise. I's worth investigating.

Thanks for the encouragement Ian, I will have a look at it today if I get time. Cricket season is starting today and I am umpiring a game, so time will be tight, see how I go.

Thanks again.

 

[OzJavelin]

Hi Don. I've been following this thread quite intently. I have a GS750 (in progress) which I'm 95% sure has cam-endfloat issue, but all the ideas here have me thinking of other, easier things to look at. BTW: I've also got a GS550 which I ride regularly and thank God it's as quiet as a church mouse. I'd hate to be going thru all your trauma.
However having said that, I've only recently re-ringed an '82 GPz750R1 which also was aflicted with a weird noise which had me very concerned. I too had the camcover off grinding down bits to see if the issue was the chain hitting. In the end, I found most of the noise was related to a junk tensioner and replaced it with a manual one. I've always wondered if a manual tensioner would help cam-endplay on the GS engines?

 

[ddaniels]

No it wouldn't. I tried a manual on mine and no change. Incidentally, I also tried retarding the timing, but no change there either.

 

[OzJavelin]

No it wouldn't. I tried a manual on mine and no change. Incidentally, I also tried retarding the timing, but no change there either.

OK .. must be a Kawasaki trait then!

 

[ddaniels]

OK .. must be a Kawasaki trait then!

Yep, a lot of my fellow GPZ owners had tensioner problems that manifested in top end noise. Most of them put manual tensioners on.

 

[Suzuki_Don]

OK. I am back again with another update.

I have removed the tacho drive gear from the valve cover. Started the motor and the noise is still there. So I have determined the noise is not the chain touching the valve cover, it's not the tacho gear being too deep in mesh with the camshaft skew gear. I am 99% sure that it is not the cam cahin tensioner, it seems to be operating OK.

In fact now the noise appears to be coming from the bottom part of the engine towards the rear, around the clutch or transmission area.

I have taken another video, not for the pictures but more for you to listen to the noise. As I moved the camera around the motor to get the microphone close to different sections of the motor to pick up the noise some of the video is out of focus. Don't worry about that, just listen to the noise.

This video is with the tacho gear removed from the motor. Maybe those interested couild compare the noises from this video to the previous videos that I did and see if they can pick up any differences. is the noise getting louder or quieter.

And thanks Javelin for your comments. All appreciated.

Also to Ian for his continuedadvice and support.


http://s226.photobucket.com/albums/dd105/donclifton/Engine Noise/?action=view&current=P1000351.mp4

The noise to me seemed to be loudest when the camera was under the carbs and above the transmission. What is there in there that could make this noise. The clutch works great, the transmission shifts beautifully, there is no power delivery problems/noises to the rear wheel.

Thanks to all.

 

[Nessism]

Just guessing here Don...but you might want to pull the clutch cover and check the large hub nut - they just love to come loose.

Hope you figure it out soon.

 

[Suzuki_Don]

Just guessing here Don...but you might want to pull the clutch cover and check the large hub nut - they just love to come loose.

Hope you figure it out soon.

Thanks Ed, I hope so too.

 

[hampshirehog]

Quick test that sometimes work - pop it in gear with the clutch in (and the motor running) and try and pull away with no throttle. If the noise stops it's your clutch more often than not (sometimes you don't even need to try and pull away). If it's still there I'd still have a look at the clutch anyway.

 

[salty_monk]

Is your exhaust sounding good & your valves set right? My 750 was making a top end rattle (sounded like a really loose valve) & I figured one of the adjusters had come loose......

Turns out 3 or 4 valves were out of tolerance at 0.2mm (spec is 0.09 - 0.13mm on this bike) plus a loose exhaust header which was amplifying the noise (I needed to snug up all bolts, I'd actually lost a couple too).

Dan

 

[BadBillyB]

Hey there Don, just re-read this whole thread and this just has to be resolved. Are you using a stock or manual cam chain tensioner.???....If you are using a stock one maybe try reloading and setting the tensioner with the valve cover on....Or did you already do it this way ??...The noise sounds more deep than I would expect from a top end noise. Try pulling one spark plug at a time with the motor running and see if the noise changes more notably on a certain cylinder (use insulated pliers for this). Is it possible a piston is nicking the compressed portion of the head gasket. If it is the "cadence" will typically double in frequency when you pull the right plug wire.....Keep pluggin away, Its probably conversion related....Billy

 

[Suzuki_Don]

Is your exhaust sounding good & your valves set right? My 750 was making a top end rattle (sounded like a really loose valve) & I figured one of the adjusters had come loose......

Turns out 3 or 4 valves were out of tolerance at 0.2mm (spec is 0.09 - 0.13mm on this bike) plus a loose exhaust header which was amplifying the noise (I needed to snug up all bolts, I'd actually lost a couple too).

Dan

Thanks Dan for your comments. I had just tightened the header bolts before I took the video so i know they are OK.

And I had just checked the valve clearances before refitting the valve cover and then removing the tacho gear. They were as follows:

Exhaust:
1 (0.10), 2 (0.07), 3 (0.09), 4 (0.08)

Intake:
1 (0.08), 2 (0.08), 3 (0.10), 4 (0.08)


I like the clearances a bit on the loose side, particularly with a rebuilt motor as things will settle down a bit and the clearances will probably close up a bit.

thanks again Dan for the advice.

 

[49er]

BBB, that's a good call about the piston hitting the head gasket.

That scenario is certainly possible after mismatching components. It could fit the symptoms of the noise only surfacing once the engine has reached running temperature too. The resulting expansion could cause the piston to protrude slightly out of the hole, while the gasket edge expands into the bore.

 

[Suzuki_Don]

Hey there Don, just re-read this whole thread and this just has to be resolved. Are you using a stock or manual cam chain tensioner.???....If you are using a stock one maybe try reloading and setting the tensioner with the valve cover on....Or did you already do it this way ??...The noise sounds more deep than I would expect from a top end noise. Try pulling one spark plug at a time with the motor running and see if the noise changes more notably on a certain cylinder (use insulated pliers for this). Is it possible a piston is nicking the compressed portion of the head gasket. If it is the "cadence" will typically double in frequency when you pull the right plug wire.....Keep pluggin away, Its probably conversion related....Billy

Hey thanks Billy for the reply. Yeh I agree this has to be resolved. I am not far from either giving up or just riding the bike and waiting for it to get worse and eventually something will fail and I will know what it is.

I am using the stock cam chain tensioner which has been completely rebuilt as per BWRINGER's instructions. I did fit the tensioner before fitting the valve cover, but remember I did lose the large spring and knurled knob and lost all the tension on the chain and had to ride it home with the tensioner not working. If I was to remove the tensioner and reload it I would have to remove the carbs and a lot of other stuff to do it. Remember the 550 frames are a bit smaller than the frames for the larger bikes and everything is very tight.

A good idea to pull the spark plug wires in turn to look for change in noise. I will try that when I get a chance.

Thanks for all your helpful comments Billy.

 

[Suzuki_Don]

BBB, that's a good call about the piston hitting the head gasket.

That scenario is certainly possible after mismatching components. It could fit the symptoms of the noise only surfacing once the engine has reached running temperature too. The resulting expansion could cause the piston to protrude slightly out of the hole, while the gasket edge expands into the bore.

I have used standard Suzuki pistons on 550 rods and a genuine Suzuki 650 head gasket. I will do the test as Billy says and if necessary remove the head if the results are negative....................

 

[waterman]

I have used standard Suzuki pistons on 550 rods and a genuine Suzuki 650 head gasket. I will do the test as Billy says and if necessary remove the head if the results are negative....................

I think your suggestion of just running it until failure sounds more exciting than pulling head again. Unfortunately, I understand your frustration and desire to solve the problem, I spent a couple months playing with my 550 before I got it running correctly.

Is there any way that the connecting rods were interfering with the cylinder sleaves? I am sure you removed material in crankcase to fit sleaves, if the cylinder was slightly positioned too far forward or aft is it possible that you have a clearance issue with rods? I don't know how you would check this but it may make this knocking noise in the lower end. Really just guessing and most likely way off base as usual.

 

[Suzuki_Don]

Thanks Ed for the suggestion. It is something I can check as I have the old 550 and another set of 650 cylinders so can take measurements off both and compare.

I drained the oil last night to be able to check in the clutch area for any looseness from the clutch basket, etc. I found a fair amount of particles in the oil filter when I removed it. The particles all seem to be aluminium.

So what opinions do you have? Is this amount of particles normal for a rebuilt engine on first oil change or excessive and the result of the knocking noise inside the motor. The only bedding in that was required was the rings and bore (I think), all the bearings in the motor were existing so were worn in.

Opinions please?

The aluminium particles are for the full length of the paper filter.

BTW the motor has only done 80 odd miles plus the running in the shed on startup and looking for this problem.


Thanks