Carb needle question '83 GS1100ED

[Joe Nardy]

I'm tearing into my carbs to tweak the jetting and I have a question about the needle spacers and washers. Bikebandit shows, from top to bottom, spacer, e-clip, washer, then spring. I have spacer, smaller diameter washer, e-clip, larger diameter washer, then spring. The bike was jetted at some time by a shop and later I installed a Dynojet kit. It's possible that the shop shimmed the needles but I can't remember. Is the correct sequence as shown in the BikeBandit schematic?

http://www.bikebandit.com/showschematic/m5994sch258433

Thanks,
Joe

 

[Griffin]

Plastic spacer, e-clip, thin washer, spring is correct.

 

[Joe Nardy]

Thanks Brett. I re-read the Dynojet instructions and they add the small washer: "Install the small K&N washer above the e-clip". I don't understand this as the small washer looks to be exactly the same thickness as the spacing between the grooves on the needle so adding the washer effectively lowers the needle one notch. The instructions for both the stage 1 and stage 3 say to install the small washers. Do you remember adding the washers when you installed your stage 1 kit?

Thanks,
Joe

 

[Griffin]

I don't remember what I did, I assume I followed the instructions. I'm looking at the Stage I kit instructions for the GS700 and it states to install the K&N washer above the e-clip. However, the diagram shows two washers below the e-clip and one (the plastic spacer, presumably), above the clip. Putting the extra washer below the clip would have no real affect on needle height, it would only place the spring under more tension. Placing it above the clip would indeed lower the needle a small amount.

Hmm... Because I'm fairly consistent with my thought processes, I would think that I went through the same scenario in my head at installation time as I did just now, and placed the washer above the e-clip, simply because it accomplishes nothing to put it below the clip.

 

[TheCafeKid]

You are correct Brett..the DJ washer goes ABOVE the clip...Joe, if you decide that your "happy spot" on the needle position ends up BETWEEN two clip slots (as mine did on my ES) you will need to add ANOTHER washer as well as the DJ washer to get your "half clip" spacing.

Just for reference, My 1100ES ended up like this:

Main DJ138
Needle clip 3.5 from the bottom (the KIT will tell you three from the top, but you'll likely find it quite lean and surgy if you follow their specific instructions)
Stock pilot
INSTALL DJ Air Correcter Jet (if your stock air corrector is larger than a 170, you'll have trouble dialing in the pilot and have back popping thru the pipe on decel..Im STILL tuning that out, BTW, You will also, ive found, get back popping if youre TOO RICH on the pilot too..as ive recently found out...You shut the throttle, an over rich mix gets evacuated into the pipe, good and hot, and....pop pop pop pop...thats my theory anyway..

 

[Guest]

DJ kit
spacer/small washer/e-clip/stock washer/spring
I add half notches with an extra washer under the small washer but over the e-clip.

 

[Joe Nardy]

You are correct Brett..the DJ washer goes ABOVE the clip...Joe, if you decide that your "happy spot" on the needle position ends up BETWEEN two clip slots (as mine did on my ES) you will need to add ANOTHER washer as well as the DJ washer to get your "half clip" spacing.

Just for reference, My 1100ES ended up like this:

Main DJ138
Needle clip 3.5 from the bottom (the KIT will tell you three from the top, but you'll likely find it quite lean and surgy if you follow their specific instructions)
Stock pilot
INSTALL DJ Air Correcter Jet (if your stock air corrector is larger than a 170, you'll have trouble dialing in the pilot and have back popping thru the pipe on decel..Im STILL tuning that out, BTW, You will also, ive found, get back popping if youre TOO RICH on the pilot too..as ive recently found out...You shut the throttle, an over rich mix gets evacuated into the pipe, good and hot, and....pop pop pop pop...thats my theory anyway..

Josh,

I can't remember.....are you running PODs? If so, K&N or otherwise? I'm running K&N PODs and a Supertrapp stainless system with 8 disks.

Thanks,
Joe

 

[TheCafeKid]

Josh,

I can't remember.....are you running PODs? If so, K&N or otherwise? I'm running K&N PODs and a Supertrapp stainless system with 8 disks.

Thanks,
Joe

Yeah Joe, Im running KN Pods, 'Trapp header with the alu slip on can (no its not as sweet as yours ) And I very the amount of discs i have in it, depending. Right now i have 15 or 16 in it. Any less than 8, ive read, is just as restrictive as a stock system, so keep that in mind.

 

[Griffin]

Yeah Joe, Im running KN Pods, 'Trapp header with the alu slip on can (no its not as sweet as yours ) And I very the amount of discs i have in it, depending. Right now i have 15 or 16 in it. Any less than 8, ive read, is just as restrictive as a stock system, so keep that in mind.

Maybe, but it sounds way cooler than stock.

 

[Joe Nardy]

Yeah Joe, Im running KN Pods, 'Trapp header with the alu slip on can (no its not as sweet as yours ) And I very the amount of discs i have in it, depending. Right now i have 15 or 16 in it. Any less than 8, ive read, is just as restrictive as a stock system, so keep that in mind.

I have to verify the number of disks currently installed as I change from time to time also. I try to balance nice sound with a reasonable noise level. That balance point seems to change with my mood.........

Thanks,
Joe

 

[TheCafeKid]

I have to verify the number of disks currently installed as I change from time to time also. I try to balance nice sound with a reasonable noise level. That balance point seems to change with my mood.........

Thanks,
Joe

I'm a jerk. I dont give a crap what everyone else has to endure, I just put earphones or plugs in...LOL! I do wish it was a little quieter sometimes, but the times ive gone with less discs, i can really tell she's stopped up, and not happy..

 

[Joe Nardy]

Josh,

What did you end up with for mixture screw settings? Dynojet says to start at 2.5 turns out but I've heard a lot of people end up more like 3-4 turns out.

Thanks,
Joe

 

[TheCafeKid]

Its gonna depend on your air corrector jets. What size do you have in there? DJ is a bit off from their directions I have found, but not much. I still havent settled on a mix screw setting, but i also just yanked the ginormous air correctors someone had in my carbs out....

 

[Joe Nardy]

Okay, here are my findings:

Starting settings:

K&N Pods
Supertrapp stainless system, 12 disks
Main - DJ138
Pilot - 50
Mix screws - 1.5 out
Needle - DJ, bottom groove (highest needle)
Symptoms - Somewhat hard to start when cold needing full choke, stumbling just off idle, rough (stumble) when applying throttle at small openings, slight stumble around 6-7K when applying full throttle

Ending settings:

K&N Pods
Supertrapp stainless system, 12 disks
Main - DJ138
Pilot - 45 (Stock size, per Dynojet instructions - Thanks TWR1776!)
Mix screws 3.25 turns out
Needle - DJ, third groove from bottom
Symptoms - Starts easier when cold with less choke, settles into idle without choke quicker, very slight stumble (surge?) at very small throttle openings noticeable only in first gear, clean at 1/4 throttle and up, pulls cleanly to redline, more responsive when accelerating from small throttle openings.

Thanks to everyone for your help!

Thanks,
Joe

 

[TheCafeKid]

Okay, here are my findings:

Starting settings:

K&N Pods
Supertrapp stainless system, 12 disks
Main - DJ138
Pilot - 50
Mix screws - 1.5 out
Needle - DJ, bottom groove (highest needle)
Symptoms - Somewhat hard to start when cold needing full choke, stumbling just off idle, rough (stumble) when applying throttle at small openings, slight stumble around 6-7K when applying full throttle

Ending settings:

K&N Pods
Supertrapp stainless system, 12 disks
Main - DJ138
Pilot - 45 (Stock size, per Dynojet instructions - Thanks TWR1776!)
Mix screws 3.25 turns out
Needle - DJ, third groove from bottom
Symptoms - Starts easier when cold with less choke, settles into idle without choke quicker, very slight stumble (surge?) at very small throttle openings noticeable only in first gear, clean at 1/4 throttle and up, pulls cleanly to redline, more responsive when accelerating from small throttle openings.

Thanks to everyone for your help!

Thanks,
Joe

Joe, you have any back popping when closing the throttle at around 5K as its winding down??

 

[Joe Nardy]

Joe, you have any back popping when closing the throttle at around 5K as its winding down??

Josh,

Very little. Certainly nothing loud like a backfire. You are probably more likely to have popping because you run more discs. The more free-flowing the exhaust is the more likely you are to have popping on decel.

Thanks,
Joe

 

[TheCafeKid]

Josh,

Very little. Certainly nothing loud like a backfire. You are probably more likely to have popping because you run more discs. The more free-flowing the exhaust is the more likely you are to have popping on decel.

Thanks,
Joe

I dunno how some of these guys do it then. I know that Bill runs wide open i think and doesnt pop. I dont want to bump the pilot, makes the bike idle and off idle slogged. Maybe i just live with it...

 

[salty_monk]

I use that extra DJ washer as a half notch tuning tool... in my experience it makes no difference to anything whether it is in there or not from a physical standpoint, just how it affects the mixture.

If you measure it you'll see it is a half not a whole notch (at least on my kits) because you're failing to take into account the thickness of the E clip (on mine it lines up with the bottom of the next notch not the top).

Dan

 

[Guest]

Run a 47.5 pilot jet with a 170 pilot air jet and that should cure all popping and low end woes and also lean that needle one half notch with an extra washer over the e-clip.
I bet that'll do ya!