Carbon fouling problem

[earlfor]

Do you have the orange white wire disconnected from the coils and are only checking voltage on the wire? also, 12.3 v is almost a dead battery. You couldnt power a flashlight with that thing.

Earl

Earl, let me make sure I am checking voltage at the coils correctly. Bike is not running, ignition switch is on, one lead from the meter is on the orange/white wire, the other contact is on the battery negative terminal or the frame. Doing this is have 12.30 vdc at the battery, and 4.5 vdc at the left coil, less than 3 vdc at the right coil (actually it eventually goes to about 1).

I'm assuming I have a big problem here? Or am I not testing correctly?

 

[Jethro]

Hold on a moment, I thought a fully charged battery was between 12 and 13 volts?!?

 

[Jethro]

It starts the bike no problem, and powers the headlight no problem. I've even left the headlight on for as long as a half hour and been able to start the bike!

 

[Jethro]

I have both the orange and white wire off and am checking the current between the orange/white wire to the negative battery terminal. I lose 8-11 volts! On an already dead battery?!?!

 

[BadBillyB]

Whenever I get a problem where multiple systems are affected, I go after the easiest circuit. The rest usually falls into place...Jethro, try this simple test. Put your red or pos meter lead on the B+ terminal of the battery. Now take the black meter lead (NEG), with the ignition ON, and read the voltage at all the tabs that the fuses touch at the fuse panel. This will eliminate a lot of stuff. You should not get over a volt at any one of the fuse terminals......BadBillyB

 

[Jethro]

You messin' with me Earl? My battery is well charged at 12.30 volts! Even the manual says so!

Anyway, I went downstairs and checked out the fuse panel as BBB suggested and I replaced the fuse labled "main" that I thought I bypassed last year when my starter switch failed, but it obviously does something for the coils. My hack wireing job in the headlight must have been powering the coils and robbing voltage. I now only lose less than a volt from battery to both coils. Time to put the tank back on and see how it runs.

 

[earlfor]

A fully charged battery will read about almost 13 volts. 12.5 is about half charged and 12.3 is aprox 25% charged.

Earl

Hold on a moment, I thought a fully charged battery was between 12 and 13 volts?!?

 

[BadBillyB]

You messin' with me Earl? My battery is well charged at 12.30 volts! Even the manual says so!

Anyway, I went downstairs and checked out the fuse panel as BBB suggested and I replaced the fuse labled "main" that I thought I bypassed last year when my starter switch failed, but it obviously does something for the coils. My hack wireing job in the headlight must have been powering the coils and robbing voltage. I now only lose less than a volt from battery to both coils. Time to put the tank back on and see how it runs.

Did you actually measure the voltage (drop), (my suggested method) at each fuse terminal or did you stuble onto the fix??? If you measure voltage drop down one side of the fuse connectors it measures drop through the ignition switch/battery cable and all connectors. If you measure down the other side it measures the drop (if any) from a bad fuse connection. Clean your connectors good at the fuse panel. I just did mine the other day after I found other poor connections. Good maintenance.........BadBillyB

 

[Jethro]

A fully charged battery will read about almost 13 volts. 12.5 is about half charged and 12.3 is aprox 25% charged.

Well if that's true I guess I'll buy myself a new battery. The road test went as before. Runs like a swiss watch until about 10 minutes after I start riding, then I get a bad stumble at take off. But voltage at idle seems to be about 13.25 volts, and it idles nicely.

 

[Jethro]

Why does the manual say it's a 12v system if the batter needs to be 13 volts!? I'm getting even more confused, if that is possible. I'm guessing this could be a huge reason why it's stumbling.

 

[BadBillyB]

I would be tempted at this stage to put new spark plugs in the motor. Sounds like you have overcome a few issues you had and maybe the spark plugs have taken all they can handle......Once fouled or even close to fouled they can not be trusted.......BadbillyB

 

[Jethro]

But the bike runs as perfect as it ever has for the first 10 minutes. Zero vibration, perfect. That's what is making me think it's electrical and something is heating up or the battery isn't keeping charge. I'll pick up new plugs tomorrow anyway.

 

[earlfor]

With a battery, there is voltage and capacity. The charge curve for a battery is a bell curve. At higher voltage levels, the curve is gradual and capacity (ability to support a load) is stable. As voltage in the battery drops, so does capacity.
At 12.3 volts, there is little capacity left, so when a load is applied, the voltage plummets and things work intermittantly or stop working. Flashers stop working or work very slowly, lights burn yellow and ingnitions misfire and produce sooty plugs.

It almost impossible to troubleshoot an electrical system without having a stable voltage level in the battery for comparison at various points in the system. You need a new battery. I think a lot of the problem is a dead battery. Your saying what your battery voltage was has helped clear up some things in my mind that just didnt fit. The pieces are starting to go together now. Get a battery, charge it to 13 v and then do the voltage check on just the orange white wires with the coils disconnected. Lemme know.

Earl

Well if that's true I guess I'll buy myself a new battery. The road test went as before. Runs like a swiss watch until about 10 minutes after I start riding, then I get a bad stumble at take off. But voltage at idle seems to be about 13.25 volts, and it idles nicely.

 

[Boondocks]

Why does the manual say it's a 12v system if the batter needs to be 13 volts!? I'm getting even more confused, if that is possible. I'm guessing this could be a huge reason why it's stumbling.

If you have a flooded lead-acid battery with vent caps, the BCI (Battery Council International) standard for a 100% charge should be about 12.65 V. Wait 4-8 hours for the surface charge to be removed and the battery voltage to stabilize before measuring. Your 12.3 V reading is about a 50% charge.

See State-of-charge reading based on terminal voltage.

 

[earlfor]

Hmmm, I make it a point to remember things that I know I will find useful.
Battery charging curves are one of them. Its a case of conflicting website information as what I have found overlaps your numbers rather than overlays them. I would think 100% charge would be the maximum voltage a battery could retain. The batteries in my bikes, retain a higher voltage than 12.65 indefinitely (close to anyway) . Uhhh, no this isnt some kind of word war, I really am curious and want to adjust my "background information" if necessary. Or, give you the opportunity to adjust yours. eheheh

Earl

If you have a flooded lead-acid battery with vent caps, the BCI (Battery Council International) standard for a 100% charge should be about 12.65 V. Wait 4-8 hours for the surface charge to be removed and the battery voltage to stabilize before measuring. Your 12.3 V reading is about a 50% charge.

See State-of-charge reading based on terminal voltage.

 

[Jethro]

I just picked up a cheap battery at the bike shop will have to charge overnight and test on Thursday after work. I was told a trickle charge for 24 hrs would be the best, and to make sure it is fully charged before beginning to discharge it. Apparently these lead acid batteries have a better memory than I do.

 

[Boondocks]

Hmmm, I make it a point to remember things that I know I will find useful.
Battery charging curves are one of them. Its a case of conflicting website information as what I have found overlaps your numbers rather than overlays them. I would think 100% charge would be the maximum voltage a battery could retain. The batteries in my bikes, retain a higher voltage than 12.65 indefinitely (close to anyway) . Uhhh, no this isnt some kind of word war, I really am curious and want to adjust my "background information" if necessary. Or, give you the opportunity to adjust yours. eheheh

Earl

Earl, this is my take on the subject. Battery charging curves are very useful and interesting, but they don't indicate the condition of the battery. They just show the rate and method of charge.

A 100% charge is the maximum voltage a battery can retain (excluding normal self-discharge). However, the retained charge can only be measured accurately after the surface charge is removed. The surface charge is a temporary higher charge reading after removal from the charger. It will disappear by itself in 4-8 hours or after turning on a current load like headlights long enough to remove the surface charge.

The state of battery charge can be closely determined by voltage measurement with a very accurate digital voltmeter. The voltage is affected by battery type. AGM batteries will have slightly higher voltage readings than flooded batteries (vent caps).

Rather than use my own numbers, I used the BCl international standard voltages in my first link. This is to avoid personal differences in batteries, voltmeters, etc. and use the recognized standard as the authority. As I mentioned, this is for flooded batteries (vent caps).

Earl, I know that you have an AGM battery. Because of their more efficient construction they typically read from 12.8 to 12.9 volts when fully charged. These numbers are coming from Battery Tutorial at Batterystuff.com. Although these voltages correlate with my own AGM battery, I use their numbers as an authority. By using sources with undeniable expertise in batteries, I hope to bypass conflicting opinions or a "word war".

 

[earlfor]

Ok, not a puzzle at all then. I dont know why the differences between flooded and AGV didnt come to mind. I thought I was awake, but apparently, I wasnt.

Earl

Earl, I know that you have an AGM battery. Because of their more efficient construction they typically read from 12.8 to 12.9 volts when fully charged. These numbers are coming from Battery Tutorial at Batterystuff.com. Although these voltages correlate with my own AGM battery, I use their numbers as an authority. By using sources with undeniable expertise in batteries, I hope to bypass conflicting opinions or a "word war".

 

[Jethro]

The battery I just got came with instructions on charging and such, and the sheet says that a CB battery is 100% charged at 12.7 volts, 75% at 12.5, 50% at 12.2 and 0% at 11.9 or less. For standard batteries, 100% at 12.6, 75% at 12.4 and so on.

Can we get back to my problem here?! NO HI-JACKING!:-D

Just kidding. I need all the education I can get. My new battery is charging. When I got home, I had 12.48 volts at the battery. It starts the bike just fine, but probably only becasue the bike takes about 2 revolutions to fire up (it's running so well). After letting it warm up, I checked the voltage at 5k rpms- 14.5 volts on the money, no fluctuation. However, I let the bike idle for a while after it was warm, and while running at idle (when the stutter becomes present) the voltage was less than 12.3. I'm pretty sure this is the problem. When I get it revved up a little the voltage goes back up. But at idle I have a very weak battery.

Could this also indicate a low rpm charging problem with the stator?

 

[Jethro]

Can one of you guys also explain an AGM battery to me?