charging disappointment

[journerr]

Hi Everyone;

In May, the shop did a bunch of work on my bike. It included new battery, cables, stator, & R/R . The R/R didn't work so I bought another one. It didn't work, so I bought a Honda unit from duneage. I just installed the Honda R/R 3 days ago (installed it myself & am pretty sure I did it right but also know I could have made a mistake !!). The bike is not charging .
After 4 starts & approx 200kms, it would not start again - dead battery (well, not 'dead' but too low to crank the engine).

The bike is an '82 GS 400E. It has 68,000kms on it, 15,000 of which I have put on in the 15 months I've owned it (6 of which have been winter & unrideable), all of which have been a bit more challenging than necessary because I've been learning about the GS charging system weakness since day 1. All of that just to say I love the bike, am not giving up, but sure would like to resolve the charging issue !

I cleaned the connections as I went, the battery had a full charge when I changed the R/R, and all battery cells were topped up.

Any input would be most welcome.
Thanks
Brightest Blessings

 

[Suzuki_Don]

Go thru the STATOR PAGES in the "Garage" section of the GSR Home Page. Go through all the tests for the stator methodically, don't miss any steps. I am sure you will find your stator is faulty.

 

[rustybronco]

In May, the shop did a bunch of work on my bike. It included new battery, cables, stator, & R/R . The R/R didn't work so I bought another one. It didn't work, so I bought a Honda unit from duneage. I just installed the Honda R/R 3 days ago (installed it myself & am pretty sure I did it right but also know I could have made a mistake !!). The bike is not charging .

All of that just to say I love the bike, am not giving up, but sure would like to resolve the charging issue !

Just two things to say here.

(1) if they worked on it, it should be charging just fine. you paid them to fix it, correct? plus they threw a bunch of parts at it...

(2) get a VOM and go through the stator pages.

 

[rustybronco]

1.[snip]and be at least 75volts.
- JC

Caution...
If the stator has been replaced with an aftermarket "Heavy duty" part, the AC voltage may only be around 45-50 volts.

 

[rustybronco]

Really??? Why would a heavy duty have 30% lower output?

Thicker wire=more current. thicker wire=less turns=less voltage in the given space to wind the wire.

 

[rustybronco]

So by "heavy duty" they mean higher output, not more longevity? Would there be any difference noticed after the r/r? Volts should be the same.

What I'm getting at with the Q's is would a HD stator require a larger r/r (higher amps), and how would you know that without removing the stator cover, versus a low output (bad) stator?

"I want to believe"

GK,

A heavy duty wound stator would produce more current but less voltage. longevity I cannot, at this time, comment on.
if the stator is properly wound and the wire insulation is of the proper high temp material, then I would think a HD stator would be totally acceptable.

when the heavier wire is used, without proper insulation, or a near perfect charging system "balance" (current output to current needed) I think one may run into troubles with durability.

I have yet to rewind a stator with heavier wire to test my idea's with, but it is my full intention in the future to do just that.

the HD stator would produce less voltage at lower rpm's, such as when the bike idles, but have more current available for use when needed for grips, vests, lights, radios ect.

in "my" opinion when a HD stator is used, it should be combined with one of the newer FET style R/R's, for better low rpm voltage, then you also should have higher current output available to be used. "again only when needed".

to know if you have a HD stator, you would have to know the bikes history, or inspect the stator...

 

[journerr]

Thank you all for the replies.
GS1100GK, JC, THANK YOU !!!! Your reply has given me some renewed focus & energy & direction. I will try to carry out those simple 5 test steps tomorrow (after charging battery tonight as suggested) .

 

[journerr]

Just a quickie as I'm flying out the door -- printed off the 5 test steps & ran them today, it seems the battery (new in May) is the culprit !

Will post more later

Thanks for all your help
and encouragement

 

[journerr]

GS100GK
Thanks again
My note yesterday was just a quickie as I didn't have more time.

I assumed the battery was the culprit because
a) it was less than 1/2 "full", and once I topped it up with deionized water and then charged it
b) it was only getting about 3v :-o

So, it didn't make any sense (to me) to go any further testing with such a bad battery, so I bought a new one (again).
Today, I was lucky enough to have time & sunshine enough to test the bike in motion
But it died --- the battery died after the 4th start and 250 kms today.

So, the battery is on charge again tonight, and I will go through the tests next chance I get; probably Monday evening. I will post the numerical test results & any other conclusions here once completed.

For a while today, I became pretty happy thinking the issue had been dealt with.

Thanks again for your assistance.
Brightest Blessings

 

[eddiev]

Would you know if the electrosport stator for an 82 gs1100gl is an HD stator. I always thought my readings were on the low side somewhere around 50-60 v if I remember right. This may explain why.
Thanks.
Eddie V

 

[reddirtrider]

A wire moving through a magnetic field induces a current in said wire. The number of turns of wire is proportional to the current - increasing the turns increases the current. If you use heavier gauge wire you probably won't get as many turns on, hence you'll produce less current. That's the theory behind it anyway.

 

[posplayr]

A wire moving through a magnetic field induces a current in said wire. The number of turns of wire is proportional to the current - increasing the turns increases the current. If you use heavier gauge wire you probably won't get as many turns on, hence you'll produce less current. That's the theory behind it anyway.

Don't want to be a nitpicker, but given the context of the conversation

It is the voltage across the turns of wire that increases in proportion to the number of turns. Each turn generates an increase in the amount of voltage.

To determine the power delivered you have to consider both the current and voltage. This is part of the detailed design process of how to get a certain amount of power out of the stator.

Fewer turns would produce lower voltage but with a larger cross section of wire , there is lower resistance and so higher current.

Alternatively smaller wire allows more turns and higher voltage but with more resistance and so there is lower current. Both could produce the same power output as power is:

Power = Current times Voltage
P = I * V

So the primary motor design trade for winding motors is to see how to physically pack the most turns with the most cross sectional area of the wire used. As it turns out the packing density can be maximized using square wire and for high performance applications they do that.

The thinner the wire the more turns but the more resistance in the wire per turn and so less current. That is motor/stator design in a nutshell. Matchless wrote a stator wiring guide where I think some of these factors come out in undestandable terms. See Basscliff's site.

 

[reddirtrider]

I appreciate the extra info. I would expect an HD version to have the same number of windings (same voltage), but use heavier wire (more amps). Don't have any experience to say that's the way it is done, but it seemed logical. Maybe with r/r the system doesn't really care and limited space...

Here is where my practical experience doesn't hold up. I haven't worked on hundreds of bikes like some of the guys here.

I am putting an eye to the Stator Papers and concerned that if someone gets low voltage out of the stator, they will think it is bad when it may just be HD. How do we identify an HD stator?

I want to be sure when telling someone to check the voltage on the stator when troubleshooting a system. ie: stator voltage is equal on all three legs, but only 50v, so pull the cover and see if "super-duper-turbo-stator" is found on it

- JC

- JC

If you're using the same number of turns you'll get the same current output, no matter the wire diameter. Using heavier wire does have benefits if you can fit it on.

When checking the stator voltage it should be connected to the R/R and any voltage present should more dependant on the input impedance of the R/R. You do check them connected - right?

Think of voltage as a pressure and current as the flow (an old water pipe analogy) the stator delivers a current. This current will develop a voltage at the R/R due to a restriction of the flow.

 

[Matchless]

When checking the stator voltage it should be connected to the R/R and any voltage present should more dependant on the input impedance of the R/R. You do check them connected - right?

The stator is usually checked when disconnected from the R/R, thus a "no load" check and all three phases must be checked for approximately 80V AC at 5000 RPM.

 

[posplayr]

The stator is usually checked when disconnected from the R/R, thus a "no load" check and all three phases must be checked for approximately 80V AC at 5000 RPM.

What he said

 

[reddirtrider]

The stator is usually checked when disconnected from the R/R, thus a "no load" check and all three phases must be checked for approximately 80V AC at 5000 RPM.

Ok, then the voltage you'll see is also proportional to the number of turns, the strength of the magnetic field, and frequency (RPM).

I'll add a bit here. The heavy duty stators you refer to may have less windings due to space limitations. In that case, then yes the no load output voltage will be lower. They will also not be able to produce as much current as the current is also proportional to the number of turns. What we're really interested in however is the current. My guess (only a guess) is that you're testing the no load voltage because it's too difficult to determine a good stator from impedance measurents.

 

[mixongw]

GK,

A heavy duty wound stator would produce more current but less voltage. longevity I cannot, at this time, comment on.
if the stator is properly wound and the wire insulation is of the proper high temp material, then I would think a HD stator would be totally acceptable.

when the heavier wire is used, without proper insulation, or a near perfect charging system "balance" (current output to current needed) I think one may run into troubles with durability.

I have yet to rewind a stator with heavier wire to test my idea's with, but it is my full intention in the future to do just that.

the HD stator would produce less voltage at lower rpm's, such as when the bike idles, but have more current available for use when needed for grips, vests, lights, radios ect.

in "my" opinion when a HD stator is used, it should be combined with one of the newer FET style R/R's, for better low rpm voltage, then you also should have higher current output available to be used. "again only when needed".

to know if you have a HD stator, you would have to know the bikes history, or inspect the stator...

Here is the way I understand this stator wire issue. Larger wire prevents getting the same number of turns on the poles. This will lower the no load output voltage some. However, the current capability is increased. It seems pretty obvious to me that we don't need 90VAC to be rectified by a half wave rectifier that gives us about 31.6 VDC. I know, I know... this is polyphase so my numbers are off but the argument still applies. A lower voltage will work just fine. Most of the excess power is dissapated in the stator wire resistance. A stator with larger wire will result in a "stiffer" power supply, as we used to call it in engineering terms. I think that the engineer that came up with this polyphase alternator feeding SCRs was on drugs. There has to be a better way.

 

[rustybronco]

The heavy duty stators you refer to may have less windings due to space limitations. In that case, then yes the no load output voltage will be lower. They will also not be able to produce as much current as the current is also proportional to the number of turns. What we're really interested in however is the current. My guess (only a guess) is that you're testing the no load voltage because it's too difficult to determine a good stator from impedance measurents.

There is a limitation to the number of turns that can be used on each pole because of the space constraints between each adjacent pole. using thicker wire (lower gauge number) on each pole will reduce the number of turns that will physically fit on each pole.

how much will the decrease in impedance, by using a larger diameter wire on the poles, increase the current flow in the stator (within the confines of the magnetic field used).
that is what I would like to find out.

 

[reddirtrider]

Guys the current is directly dependant on the number of turns. Decreasing turns will decrease current. The electomotive force (EMF) in volts will decrease when you reduce the turns. EMF and current are directly related.

If you have a source that states otherwise, please post it because I need to go back to school and inform my professors they lied to me.

 

[rustybronco]

I think that the engineer that came up with this polyphase alternator feeding SCRs was on drugs. There has to be a better way.

There is a limitation to the amount of the magnetic field produced by the rotor and the limitations of the insulation to consider. who knows what all went into the design considerations.

I believe it was Matchless that said, the engineers try to not to deviate from the theoretical maximum of the design.

but It still would have been nice if they would have used a excited field alternator...

***edit***

Guys the current is directly dependant on the number of turns. Decreasing turns will decrease current.

Time for me to open the books and study again.
I wish I hadn't been away from it for so long, it's has made me very RUSTY...

Thanks Reddirtrider.