Charging System

[mike1414]

Oh, the dreaded Suzuki charging system.

As with many of you, I am having issues with my charging system - issues that just do not make any sense to me.

Since the beginning of last year (2014) I have been battling this issue. I put a fully charged battery in my bike, start riding, and within a few miles my headlight would start to flicker, my gearshift indicator would start fading, and my bike would die. The previous owner of this bike made an absurdity of the charging system.


Initially, I started going at it on a whim:

- Rewired the stator to the R/R

- Replaced the stator with an RM Stator

- Replaced the R/R with the Polaris SH-775

- Replaced the battery (x2) most recently with a Yuasa YUAM2210Y YB10L-A2 12v battery approximately 2 months ago.


I finally did the Quick Test as described by Posplayr. My first two values were the only that were out of whack, and I found it peculiar what was happening.

- Key off: 12.3v-12.5v
- Key/lights on: 12.0v-12.1v
- At idle (1500 RPMs): 13.2v
- 2500 RPM: 14.2v-14.4v
- 5000 RPM: 14.7v-14.9v
- Key off: Started at 13.3v


When I first turned my key on with my lights on, my voltage was dropping at a rate of .1-.3 volts per second. At idle and upon acceleration it seems as though my system works fine. But, there is a wrench in things in that I can only ride on this bike with a fully charged battery for approximately 50-60 miles before it dies. It may die mid ride upon coming to a stop sign/stop light (coming to idle). Or it may die as I pull into my parking spot at the end of a ride; as I slow down and come to a stop, my bike cuts off, the battery dead, and will not start again. If it sits with the battery connected (and with the kill switch off, the light switch turned off, etc.) for a few days - maybe 3-4 days - the battery will die.


So all that being said, anyone have any input? Because I am truly stumped. I've posted on here before as the PO of my bike horsed around with the electrical system before and put in a fuse box (http://www.easternbeaver.com/Main/Wiring_Kits/Fuseboxes/PC-8/pc-8.html) and a smaller (6v) battery that I replaced with a newer 6v battery and now the better 12v.

To summarize --> Quick Test shows battery quickly dying with key on --> dies after 50-60 miles of riding at variable speeds (up to 45mph) --> dies coming up to a stop light/sign, after ride, or after sitting for a few days --> starts back up and rides well with a fully charged battery and the process starts all over.

Any help is welcomed.

Thanks guys,

Mike

 

[JTGS850GL]

Looking at the quick test you posted it looks like the system WAS charging at the time of the test. The only thing I can think of is a connection between the R/R and the battery getting hot and opening. Suggest taking some measurements after you've ridden the bike for a few. That may confirm that the charging system has stopped working and where the problem resides.

 

[tom203]

Since you said PO was creative, could be lots of things, those charging numbers at 5000 are really high- my SH-775 doesn't get above 14.2 even after a cold start. Maybe the r/r doesn't sense battery well and is getting bewildered and cutting out. You probably conected positive output from r/r into harness. If so, get a 20 amp fuse holder and run positive output thru fuse direct to battery positive and skip harness. This might offer clues.
Draining the battery stuff when bike is off implies something being powered or the r/r is internally shorting.

 

[Steve]

This part bothers me. :-k

I've posted on here before as the PO of my bike horsed around with the electrical system before and put in a fuse box (http://www.easternbeaver.com/Main/Wiring_Kits/Fuseboxes/PC-8/pc-8.html) and a smaller (6v) battery that I replaced with a newer 6v battery and now the better 12v.

Why would anyone (including YOU) put a 6 volt battery in a 12 volt system?

There is nothing wrong with that fuse box, as long as it is wired correctly. I have one of them in each of the GSes in my stable and I really like them.

If you are comfortable following a wiring diagram, send me a PM or an e-mail with your phone number and the best time to call, we can probably work it out over the phone.

.

 

[BigD_83]

Since you said PO was creative, could be lots of things, those charging numbers at 5000 are really high- my SH-775 doesn't get above 14.2 even after a cold start. Maybe the r/r doesn't sense battery well and is getting bewildered and cutting out. You probably conected positive output from r/r into harness. If so, get a 20 amp fuse holder and run positive output thru fuse direct to battery positive and skip harness. This might offer clues.
Draining the battery stuff when bike is off implies something being powered or the r/r is internally shorting.

I agree with Tom. Those 5000rpm charging numbers are too high, so there is potential there for them to go much higher in real world conditions. If they go high enough, I'd expect you to notice some other funkiness, like vigorous boiling and steam coming from a wet cell battery.

As far as the voltage dropping with the key turned to on, that's pretty normal, but it should stabilize at some point.

It does sound like there are still some wiring gremlins to be sorted out. What is the ground wire situation?

 

[posplayr]

I agree with Tom the charging numbers are high which makes me wonder if the measurements were taken directly at the battery by stabbing the center posts? I also looked and that is now a 14mpHr battery which is full sized.

The discharging is unusually but I'm not sure how exact to take it.

- Key off: 12.3v-12.5v
- Key/lights on: 12.0v-12.1v

When I first turned my key on with my lights on, my voltage was dropping at a rate of .1-.3 volts per second.

I'm wondering if there is not a battery drain somewhere as the #1 measurement is too low and the #2 is fine.

Get an amp meter, and turnoff everything on the bike.
1.) Disconnect the ground cables from the battery (but keep them together) .
2.) Put the meter of amps start on a 10 amp scale.
3.) Insert the amp meter between the battery and the ground cables.
4.) report what you measure. If the number is low change to a lower amp meter range till you get a solid reading.

If you have a high drain with the key off, then disconnect the R/R and see if it goes away. I assume you don't have a lot of other stuff connected like a 7" GPS display

The SH-775 will only pull about 2.5 mAmps when off; see if that is changed.

 

[mike1414]

Tom, there is no telling what on God's green earth the PO did. He tried to....upgrade (?) to a 6v battery and got creative with the housing of it. There are a lot of inline fuses/fuse holders, the fuse box (which I do understand could be a blessing if wired correctly), and much more. The connections between the R/R and the stator were off, God knows where the connections were headed.

Steve, for this reason, I just replaced the 6v battery when the bike began dying. I am trying to get more comfortable with a wiring diagram, but am still learning. Unfortunately with no shaded area or garage in which to work on my bike, I am limited in the hours I can work in the FL summer heat haha.

Everything seems to be properly grounded. I did in fact take the readings directly at the posts which I guess determines some of the symptoms. There are not and acid leaks or anything coming from the battery. I'm at work now, unfortunately, but I'll try and get some numbers before sundown.

 

[JTGS850GL]

Even with high charging numbers at the higher RPM's, it doesn't explain why his battery would drain down while riding. The terminal voltage after the test indicates that the battery was being charged. Something else has to be going on here. You can run all day long at 14.7V as long as you don't fry something. Most of the electronics will tolerate it though.

Did you boil your battery dry? Either that or something is opening up under heat stress and leaving him running off of battery power only. There may be other issues relating to the battery draining when power is off as well. May or not be related to the running issues.

 

[posplayr]

Even with high charging numbers at the higher RPM's, it doesn't explain why his battery would drain down while riding. The terminal voltage after the test indicates that the battery was being charged. Something else has to be going on here. You can run all day long at 14.7V as long as you don't fry something. Most of the electronics will tolerate it though.

Did you boil your battery dry? Either that or something is opening up under heat stress and leaving him running off of battery power only. There may be other issues relating to the battery draining when power is off as well. May or not be related to the running issues.

Agree; While charging is a little high, anything under 15V won't hurt (The GS Factory manual even says 15.5V is acceptable). I think there is short drawing down the battery when not charging strongly.

 

[JTGS850GL]

Agree; While charging is a little high, anything under 15V won't hurt (The GS Factory manual even says 15.5V is acceptable). I think there is short drawing down the battery when not charging strongly.

Either a very high drain short that's not fused or a vibration or thermal related open in the charging system. I'm betting on open since a severe short should be blowing a fuse or smoking wires somewhere.

 

[posplayr]

Either a very high drain short that's not fused or a vibration or thermal related open in the charging system. I'm betting on open since a severe short should be blowing a fuse or smoking wires somewhere.

These numbers suggest a 5 amp short.

- Key off: 12.3v-12.5v
- Key/lights on: 12.0v-12.1v

The 12.8V to 12.1V drop of a good charged battery is a 10 amps load (0.7V==>10Amp). Since his quiescent numbers are already down about 1/2 (say 12.4V) that I figure 5 amps getting drained somewhere with the key off.

 

[mike1414]

JT the battery acid levels have not changed a bit - everything is exactly as it was when I first filled it a couple months ago. I took more measurements today, not in the center of the screws haha:

Key off: 12.5v-12.55v
Key/lights on: 12.1v
Idle: 12.6v
2500 RPM: 13.2v
5000 RPM: 13.35v

After a 2 block run: 13.7v

Going to take a longer run tonight when it isn't traffickey out (and I dont have the potential for the bike to die and ultimately kill me).

These numbers are a little odd to me, kinda more normal, no? It definitely seems as though I am only getting this mileage off of my battery, but these numbers obviously suggest that it is charging. I don't know what may be going on as I run it for longer that could take away from my charge.

Pos, as you mentioned, I went to measure the amperage; my multimeter measures 10amps, but I'm pretty confident that I didn't do it correctly as....well uh....I touched the multimeter to the terminals, both positive and negative (disconnected the wiring to the terminals) and it started smoking and heating up. But, I did see that it read 1. So, I'm going to go ahead and assume that was incorrect in my process. Still a little confused as to how to do it, but from reading a bit more/looking at YouTube, I am supposed to work solely with the positive side to measure amperage?

 

[mike1414]

Don't know where the post went...it just disappeared...so I'll retry haha but my Ac levels were -.35 and DC levels were 0.0-0.2. I think I figured the amperage measuring out.

Also so just took the bike on about a mile run and my voltage was about 12.4-12.5 afterwards with the key on and at idle.

 

[posplayr]

JT the battery acid levels have not changed a bit - everything is exactly as it was when I first filled it a couple months ago. I took more measurements today, not in the center of the screws haha:

Key off: 12.5v-12.55v
Key/lights on: 12.1v
Idle: 12.6v
2500 RPM: 13.2v
5000 RPM: 13.35v

After a 2 block run: 13.7v

Going to take a longer run tonight when it isn't traffickey out (and I dont have the potential for the bike to die and ultimately kill me).

These numbers are a little odd to me, kinda more normal, no? It definitely seems as though I am only getting this mileage off of my battery, but these numbers obviously suggest that it is charging. I don't know what may be going on as I run it for longer that could take away from my charge.

Pos, as you mentioned, I went to measure the amperage; my multimeter measures 10amps, but I'm pretty confident that I didn't do it correctly as....well uh....I touched the multimeter to the terminals, both positive and negative (disconnected the wiring to the terminals) and it started smoking and heating up. But, I did see that it read 1. So, I'm going to go ahead and assume that was incorrect in my process. Still a little confused as to how to do it, but from reading a bit more/looking at YouTube, I am supposed to work solely with the positive side to measure amperage?

First off , what did you do? Your were overcharging before and now you are undercharging.


Second, If you are going to measure current draw, it doesn't matter where in the circuit you locate the meter. So the best place is the safest place. The safest place is the low side of a device. DO NOT CONNECT AN AMP METER across the BATTERY or any other powered circuit. You will just blow the fuse in the device (if there is one).

• Volt meters are high impedance and can be used across anything.
• Amp meters are low impedance and are put in series with a load not across a load.

Start out simple with the amp meter.

Put your meter on the 10 amps scale and put signal bulb (like 1165) in series with the meter and across the battery. The light will light and the meter will say something like 2 amps.

Now that you're checked out with the amp meter, remove the ground side connections to the battery (all). With the key off, insert the amp meter between the ground cables and the battery(-). Do you read anything?

If not move down on the DC amp scale (e.g .300 mAmp). Do you see anything? These should be about 2.5mAmps for the SH-775. The Compufire is zero.

If it is no real low, something is drawing current, Start looking for it by disconnecting things. Start with the R/R.

 

[mike1414]

Yeah it didn't take me long to learn not to do that haha. I haven't had time to recheck the amps, but did measure the voltage again.

I just measured the voltage again pre return ride, my voltage was 12.6. Upon my mile return ride home, my voltage was 12.1v when I got the bike back home and at idle RPM. The voltage seemed to keep rising for about 10 seconds afterwards; I don't know what that's about. I measured the voltage at the beginning of the connectors, thus the lower readings compared to my readings in the middle of my posts.

I'll get an amperage reading again tomm, a better measurement, and get back.

Any my thoughts on the voltages? Seems like when the bike is moving its losing voltage? But when not moving and at idle, 2500, amd 50000 RPMs it seems fine. Does that seem legitimate?

 

[posplayr]

It matters where you measure voltages, so changing that without telling anybody doesn't do anything to help your problem. Right now I would say do a complete Quick test again (ans post the numbers) as I really do not know where you stand.

 

[mike1414]

Sorry I figured since it was mentioned that my measurements at the center of the screws were too high then I would move right outside to where the wires insert into the connector to make it a bit more accurate. That being said, I took measurements again from the center of the screws in the terminals, so for comparison:

Today's measurements:
Key off: 12.37
Key on: 12.3
Key/lights on: 12.02
Idle: 13.37
2500 RPMs: 13.55
5000 RPMs: 13.65
After 2 block run: 13.02


Also, amperage measurements:

DC measured at: 4.0 at 200mamps
DC with R/R disconnected: 3.5 at 200mamps



So, I don't know what the amperage values mean, but according to your Quick Test and the data under your QuickTest link, it seems as though my battery certainly isn't charging well. I would assume that the amperage has something to do with (when my R/R is connected) the R/R is pulling charge from my battery? Also, I did realize that after my [short] run, my charge was still over 13, although quickly dropping, demonstrating that it isn't charging well or at all?

Hope I got the numbers right this time, and I am really looking forward to you guys helping. Unfortunately, I am going to PARIS tomorrow through the weekend! Paris, Tennessee, that is, so I won't be able to work on the bike, but I am eagerly anticipating your responses and will sure be going through them all throughout the weekend. I would absolutely love to figure this out. Aside from a simple carb sync, this is the last thing holding me back from riding regularly!

Cheers guys, and thanks for all the help so far!

 

[posplayr]

Sorry I figured since it was mentioned that my measurements at the center of the screws were too high then I would move right outside to where the wires insert into the connector to make it a bit more accurate. That being said, I took measurements again from the center of the screws in the terminals, so for comparison:

Today's measurements:
Key off: 12.37
Key on: 12.3
Key/lights on: 12.02
After 2 block run: 13.02

This indicates that the battery started low but then charged while you rode it.

Idle: 13.37
2500 RPMs: 13.55
5000 RPMs: 13.65
After 2 block run: 13.02

It is not charging well but it is charging. I would suggest cleaning your connections after doing the revised Phase A tests to see how bad the connections are. If the voltage drops are low, then it might be a bad stator.

Also, amperage measurements:

DC measured at: 4.0 at 200mamps
DC with R/R disconnected: 3.5 at 200mamps

not sure what this means? 4.0 mamps on the 200 mAmp scale? 3.5 mamps with the R/R disconnect means you have a current draw (3.5 mamps) somewhere. Not a lot but more than normal. You should find it, but this is not going to pull the battery down over night.

[/QUOTE]

 

[mike1414]

Correct, pos, I assume that the "200m" scale is in milliamps? I measured 4.0 w/ the R/R connected, and 3.5 w/ the R/R disconnected so I figured that it was 400 and 350 milliamps on the scale.

What could cause the stator to go bad within a year's time? I replaced it just about a year ago from a manufacturer that had good reviews and pretty good prices (www.rmstator.com). Could a bad coil be draining the battery, or is that just wishful thinking and not at all related? It honestly seems like about the only thing that I have yet to replace as as part of the electrical system. It's a stretch, I'm sure.

 

[posplayr]

Correct, pos, I assume that the "200m" scale is in milliamps? I measured 4.0 w/ the R/R connected, and 3.5 w/ the R/R disconnected so I figured that it was 400 and 350 milliamps on the scale.

What could cause the stator to go bad within a year's time? I replaced it just about a year ago from a manufacturer that had good reviews and pretty good prices (www.rmstator.com). Could a bad coil be draining the battery, or is that just wishful thinking and not at all related? It honestly seems like about the only thing that I have yet to replace as as part of the electrical system. It's a stretch, I'm sure.

Stators burn up due to Shunt R/R's .

If you have 350-400 amps of current draw then that is way more than 2 mamps that the SH-775 should have. You have a short somewhere and it is enough to drain your battery in a couple of days.! 14 amp-hr means you can pull 1 amp for 14 hours. You are pulling 1/3 of that so figure 14x3=42 hours.
Start by removing one fuse at a time to see if it does away on any one of the circuits.
Then if you determine what circuit, start removing devices disconnecting things.
It is a good idea, before you do too much to just look for cuts or other damage top the harness.